Moh Kempo Martial Arts

[MrE2Me2]

To all,

Here is a YouTube Video showing a dropping side kick similar to the one I learned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbimNQgJ1BQ

I have 3 questions.

1. How many of you learned similar kicks?

2. How many of you ever able to apply them (even in preset sparring drills)?

3. How many of you still practice these?

Regards, MrE2Me2
_________________
We’re naught but humble pirates.
- Captain Barbossa (Pirates of the Caribbean)

[RD]

It's similar to one variation that I learned. Another variation drops straight down without sliding forward. I've also trained both side kick and roundhouse kick variations of the dropkick.

Personally I tend to stay away from drop kicks in sparring as I have a larger body mass (>200Lbs) so the impact of the drop is hard on my joints if I don't land right. However I've sparred with smaller, lighter individuals who are able to apply drop kicks effectively. It also provides a way for shorter people to get past my reach advantage.

With these kinds of techniques, it's important to emphasize to students the importance of getting up to your feet as quickly as possible, so you can deal with multiple attackers. Otherwise you risk getting stomped on.

RD

[MrE2Me2]

Hello RD,

You posted, “It's similar to one variation that I learned. Another variation drops straight down without sliding forward. I've also trained both side kick and roundhouse kick variations of the dropkick.”

My response: Yeah, me too. I wonder whether the guy in the vid was moving forward as he dropped because he wanted to go slow.
I was always taught that a drop kick was a form of a flying kick. That literally, the drop could be forward but was usually straight down (or even backward in some cases).

Were you ever taught a ‘Tiger Tail’ or ‘Double Tiger Tail’?

I had a teacher who was short and slight and he would perform a drop kick every once in a while. I don’t ever recall him moving forward.
On the other hand, when I teach this form of drop kick, I find my students tend to want to move through it slowly. When they go slow, they (also) move slightly forward.


You posted, “Personally I tend to stay away from drop kicks in sparring as I have a larger body mass (>200Lbs) so the impact of the drop is hard on my joints if I don't land right.”

My response: At 170+ pounds I can relate. I also have back problems and can only train this type of technique infrequently anyway.

None the less, it’s a pretty flashy move, especially against a high kick, and I enjoy seeing it.


You posted, “With these kinds of techniques, it's important to emphasize to students the importance of getting up to your feet as quickly as possible, so you can deal with multiple attackers. Otherwise you risk getting stomped on.”

My response: Against multiple opponents I’d agree.

I was also taught to spin in place (when prone) against a circling single opponent.

As well, I was taught to regain my feet without the use of my hands.

When I was younger, this was easy, now, not so much

Regards, MrE2Me2
_________________
We’re naught but humble pirates.
- Captain Barbossa (Pirates of the Caribbean)

[RD]

I train the tiger’s tail and its variations (double, flying, etc...) infrequently. Like dropkicks, these techniques aren’t suited to my body type. However I think that it’s important to train all techniques so that we can faithfully pass on the style. There are people who can make these techniques work well.

The best tiger’s tails I’ve ever seen were done by Master Demetrius. I’ve never been fortunate enough to see Grandmaster Simon do them, but we used to have a picture of him in one of the old Edmonton studios doing a flying tiger’s tail – I’m pretty sure he was about sixty-five years young in that picture. I can only hope to be able to move like that when I’m that age. Amazing photo!

RD

[MrE2Me2]

I believe that the standing and flying ‘Tiger Tails’ used to be called ‘Spinning Wheel Kicks’. Until now, I had only heard of ‘Tiger Tails’ being a dropping kick.
_________________
We’re naught but humble pirates.
- Captain Barbossa (Pirates of the Caribbean)

[DaveS]

Hey robin,

I was taught this technique at TKF. I guess it can be good excercise dropping down and getting up but really......would you ever consider doing that in a live situation? Or sparring? Probably not......

Imagine doing that with an MMA/ BBJ opponent? Not good. You'd be toast. Anyone with a half decent ground game would eat that up. Look's like a bad plan.....

[MrE2Me2]

Hey DaveS,

You posted, “…would you ever consider doing that in a live situation? Or sparring?...”

My response: No…I’m not personally likely to use it in either but…
I see using any form of drop kick in a live situation as very unrealistic yet being able to fall to the ground without injury is important.

Sparring in the studio against other Moh stylists is another matter. I have seen this. It’s flashy and exciting. However, the people that did this were all very small people standing in low stances to begin with.


You posted, “Imagine doing that with an MMA/ BBJ opponent? Not good. You'd be toast. Anyone with a half decent ground game would eat that up. Look's like a bad plan.....”

My response: I’d have to agree. For one thing, the dropping side kick is used to attack the groin and the tiger tail, done to the front of the knee are both illegal (as well as immoral) targets.

Again, just as an ‘in-house’ technique in sparring against another trusted sparring partner; the drop kick can be an unexpected and interesting counter to a high kick.

Regards, MrE2Me2

Without Prejudice
_________________
We’re naught but humble pirates.
- Captain Barbossa (Pirates of the Caribbean)

[RD]

Hello MrE,

The spinning wheel kick is a different animal altogether, in our club we call it a spinning hook. Here's a spinning wheel kick I found on youtube (not to be confused with flying tigers tail).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ercFcX5YwEk

I haven't been able to find a flying tigers tail on youtube, possibly because it may be known by some other name. It is an aerial kick delivered vertically with the heel striking in a downward direction, and with the body inverted (think somersaults). I guess you'll just have to come and train Moh Pai with us in our club if you want to learn it. [yeah a shameless plug I know ]

As for the viability of using these kicks, it depends on the individual, the circumstances, the environment, the attacker, and many other variables. In our club, we train all techniques from the point of view of self defense, not tournaments. Techniques that may be "illegal" acording to some arbitrary tournament rules can certainly be used in self defense situations. In this context, there's nothing "immoral" about using any means necessary to defend yourself.

Would I use a tiger's tail in a real self defense situation? No. I prefer to keep my feet on the ground. Could someone with master-level skill make it work? Of that I have no doubt. Would he or she use it on the street? That probably depends on which master you ask.

The value in training these techniques, as you pointed out, is in the skill you acquire. Learning to deliver techniques while your body is in an unfamiliar orientation, and so on. The skill is then transferable to other techniques. Not to mention the "flashy" aspect as you call it. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with adding a little art to the martial. When done well, the art of Moh Pai can be pleasing to watch.

RD

[MrE2Me2]

Hello RD

You posted, “The spinning wheel kick is a different animal altogether, in our club we call it a spinning hook.”

My response:
I do get what you are saying; although personally, I could never execute a stiff leg version on anything but a dropping tiger tail (and then, only for demonstration).

However, when I trained in Edmonton and Vancouver, there was supposed to be a difference between the ‘spinning wheel kick’ and the ‘spinning hook kick’.
The main difference was that the ‘spinning wheel kick’ was done with a completely stiff leg and the ‘spinning hook kick’ used the bending leg to add power to the kick and help maintain balance.
Also the ‘spinning wheel kick’ was done slightly further away.

I found this which is similar to the wheel kick but the guy calls it a ‘Spinning Hook Kick’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8nh9hF_yOA&feature=related


You posted, “I haven't been able to find a flying tigers tail on youtube, possibly because it may be known by some other name…”

My response:
Your description gave me a better understanding of what you are talking about.
Is the kick on this link a stiff leg version of what you describe?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZvQ9Iuw_28

You posted, “…When done well, the art of Moh Pai can be pleasing to watch.”

My response:
I’d have to agree with that.

Regards, MrE2Me2

Without Prejudice
_________________
We’re naught but humble pirates.
- Captain Barbossa (Pirates of the Caribbean)

[RD]

Hi MrE,

Yes that rolling axe kick video clip looks closer.

RD

[92]

[RD]

Yes thank you 92.

That's actually a much better explanation than my feable attempt. The only thing I would add is that in the photo which used to hang in the studio, Grandmaster Simon is almost completely verticle (and upside down, and airborn (and in his sixties)), not really horizontal. But of course this is very hard to achieve. That's why he's Grandmaster.

RD

[92]

[MrE2Me2]

Hello 92,

Well, what you describe sounds very difficult.

On another note, I have here a video of a guy demonstrating his version of a 'Tiger Tail'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfZdHnyIH28

Frankly, I'd be worried that it takes too much time to execute and leaves the kicker vulnerable if he is slow or misses or even fails to fully incapacitate the attacker.

Regards, MrE2Me2
Without Prejudice
_________________
We’re naught but humble pirates.
- Captain Barbossa (Pirates of the Caribbean)

[92]

[MrE2Me2]

Hey 92,

You posted, "I've watched a few of the videos by these two guys after you first posted the link to them. Obviously they are training a different style, and a lot of what they do is not necessarily what I would consider the best way of doing things, but what really stood out is that most of the applications they propose for the techniques they show are extremely silly and can get you in a lot of trouble unnecessarily."

My response: In surfing YouTube, I found that while these guys demonstrate various techniques; it's usually a slow and an 'ideal' way of performing the move.

I'd be very interested in seeing them performing against a fast attack.

Regards, MrE2Me2
Without Prejudice
_________________
We’re naught but humble pirates.
- Captain Barbossa (Pirates of the Caribbean)