Moh Kempo Martial Arts

RD · fighter Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 107

Daves,

If you would like to know more about the club then please visit the web site http://mohpai.com where you will find a wealth of information. But when it comes to Moh Pai, I think you really need to get up and do it, not just talk about it. We can only ever scratch the surface here on the internet - to appreciate Moh Pai, you really have to experience our classes for yourself and become physically involved in the training. We strongly encourage everyone to freely attend a few classes.

If you're only interested in asking stump-the-teacher questions, then I'll be honest with you and say I don't know. Our club provides no instruction on the subjects you're asking about.

Good luck to you. I hope you find what you're looking for.

RD

On a side note Daves:

I don't appreciate your tone. You obviously aren't willing to follow any kind of net etiquette. You don't seem to realize that I'm just a member of a club that trains the Moh Pai self defense system, and that I train because I love it and for no other reason. Your repeated demands that I answer your obscure questions, and your suggestion that my not knowing the answers means that I am stupid, is insulting. I can only respond to insults in a good natured way so many times. So if you intend to continue this dialog then let's be clear about three things:

- I don't owe you answers.
- It's not my personal responsibility to repair anything.
- I don't speak for Olaf Simon.

DaveS · black belt Joined: 30 Jun 2006 Posts: 88

"On a side note Daves:

I don't appreciate your tone. You obviously aren't willing to follow any kind of net etiquette. You don't seem to realize that I'm just a member of a club that trains the Moh Pai self defense system, and that I train because I love it and for no other reason. Your repeated demands that I answer your obscure questions, and your suggestion that my not knowing the answers means that I am stupid, is insulting. I can only respond to insults in a good natured way so many times. So if you intend to continue this dialog then let's be clear about three things: ........"

RD, Nothing I said was insulting to you so get off your high horse. I asked a simple question. I see you can't answer it. I have never demanded anything in my posts from you or anyone else. I asked you, or anyone else to step up and provide even a shred of evidence to support Simon's claims. What is obscure about my request? Simon wrote and published these claims of inheritance of some sort of guardianship. You didn't write it, nor did the masters suggest you train with.

Let's be clear about something..most respectable masters can verfiy their training. Simon provides none. And neither do you or any of the people that train Moh Pai. It was a simple question. You can't answer and that's fine. Save your insults.

You use the word "Stupid".....you may want to look up brain-washed as well.

Swanstrom · troll Joined: 27 Oct 2006 Posts: 8

Good day all,

It has been quite some time since I posted on this forum and I hope that everyone is happy, healthy, and enjoying their training in whatever form or venue that it takes place.

It has been brought to my attention that there are a few questions that have been posed on this forum and I hope to clarify a few points.

To start…there always seems to be some confusing of the Moh and Pai Hu Shih Systems and how they came to be. In the front of “Law of the Fist” GMS gives a much better history of this than I could hope to. These systems are Grandmaster Simon’s style and by his design they are based on the concepts taught to him by Master Fu Yen as well as various Japanese combat techniques which developed in combination through direct life experiences. Many masters from various systems have worked and collaborated with GMS over the years, that fact can not be disputed. They, as well as over a million students, have recognized his level of skill and prowess in the combative arts…again that can not be disputed. GMS is the originator of the “White Tiger Style – Pai Hu Shih” such as it relates to his system. After all this is what a master eventually does, he takes the teaching given to him and progresses with that knowledge into a new direction. This is nothing new or shocking. Many styles of the martial arts have originated from master students of other masters. Often two masters from the same teacher have branched off to develop their own unique styles. The term of Grand Master really is by North American design, in terms of the modern systems of which we speak. It usually is a title taken by a master that has created other masters and in doing so has rewarded themselves as an instructor with a higher level title representative of their accomplishments as a trainer of master level students. This is exactly what Grand Master Simon has done and that is why we refer to him as our “Founder”. I do not know of a single system Chinese, Japanese, or Korean that had a master that did not originate their system or style. That is why there are well over 300 Chinese based systems which are new or combined.

Since “Law of the Fist” was previously mentioned on this thread…one has to only look to the first few pages of that book to obtain the answer to the 22nd Guardian - Dalai Seng Shih (taking from the Tibetan interpretation of “Great Ocean” meaning supreme or first). LOTF clearly lists…“previous 21st succession was held by Grand Master Lin Fie Hung and 22nd succession was entrusted to Grand Master Li Kwin Yan.”

How did GMS come to being the 23rd…well…Three masters from Hong Kong awarded GMS the 23rd title many years ago and the document they presented him hangs in his personal residence…however to read it your Chinese will need to be better than mine,. The last time Master Crossman was in Grand Forks GMS showed him this document. Additionally, GMS also pulled out a stack of various degrees from an assortment of martial arts disciplines who have awarded/ accredited him 6th, 7th , 8th, 9th degrees and so on. GMS was always of the belief that his skill matter more than paper and until recently he hasn’t really brought these documents forward, as he is a self made man and does not launch his Style off of the notoriety of others. From what organizations or federations they are I couldn’t tell you...and really it personally doesn’t matter to me as I am also of the belief that true skill represents and defines…and let’s face it has anyone come close to cracking 1270lbs of ice lately? Who knows, in the future we just may scan some of these document and ad them to our website…you never know.

On that note, we also really don’t feel the need to compile a “paper resume” I think that the accomplishments of GMS hold there own value as does his System. If that isn’t enough for you personally… that is acceptable to us. From this site I can personally see that there are still a lot of people that do enjoy the Moh Pai Style and hold value to it. If you don’t…that too is ok. If you don’t believe the fore mentioned…again…ok. Individuals in a free society have the wonderful gift of choice. If you chose to train another system/ style, all the power to you, I hope you have a tremendous time.

I really like the fact that this site (for the most part) has become a good point of connection for those that do enjoy the Moh Pai Style and I, for one, love hearing from various individuals who still periodically drop me a line to tell me how they are doing. I’d like to thank the moderators for their efforts at keeping this site respectable. Well done gentlemen!

With the new re-location to Saskatoon, my commitments with the Moh Pai Defensive Arts, policing, and my family; I don’t have the time to engage in massive internet debates. So hopefully this short post has answered a few questions…if not…please send me an e-mail through www.mohpai.com and I will try and help where I can.

In the future I hope that we will be able to meet with a lot of you and join you in your training if you desire. Please feel free to drop us an e-mail or phone call if you are in one of our area. We have seen a lot of old faces pop in and return to training and our welcome mat is always out!

Thank you and all the best,

DJ Swanstrom

TKFBS · monk Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 62

I sent D.J. an e-mail discussing what I feel are gross misrepresentations of the cowpie history. It's been a week. I'm going to re-hash the e-mail here so maybe we can discuss.

"These systems are Grandmaster Simon’s style and by his design they are based on the concepts taught to him by Master Fu Yen "

This is a complete lie. There never ever existed a Fu Yen except in recesses of Olaf's mind. Richard Shergold was able to have a conversation with Olaf's brother. His own brother never remembers this fictional person. Not as a family gardener , or anyone that was ever around their family.
If I am wrong and he is a great master you need to provide more accurate documentation. Otherwise this is fiction. Prove that he existed ever.

" Many masters from various systems have worked and collaborated with GMS over the years, that fact can not be disputed."

From Leilani Parkers lips to my ears.. " I remember Olaf! The girl he was with did all the work and he just sat there".
As for any others of any signifigance please provide reference as to these masters. There was the one guy in Edmonton he worked with and who else? Parker? Sorry buddy, it's all lies. He and Marg Hilbig picked it up from books. Not a colage of masters.

"They, as well as over a million students, have recognized his level of skill and prowess in the combative arts"
Theres a boldfaced lie . Please explain how you arrived @ that exagerration.

"Since “Law of the Fist” was previously mentioned on this thread…one has to only look to the first few pages of that book to obtain the answer to the 22nd Guardian - Dalai Seng Shih (taking from the Tibetan interpretation of “Great Ocean” meaning supreme or first). LOTF clearly lists…“previous 21st succession was held by Grand Master Lin Fie Hung and 22nd succession was entrusted to Grand Master Li Kwin Yan.”

How did GMS come to being the 23rd…well…Three masters from Hong Kong awarded GMS the 23rd title many years ago and the document they presented him hangs in his personal residence…however to read it your Chinese will need to be better than mine,."

Please provide real documentation as to these people. If they are who you say they are, there should be all kinds of information on them. Just because they appear in Simon's book does not mean that they exist at all . Give me some links. Something . Anything. I doubt you can provide any information on these past masters. If they are from Hong Kong I can find them. My wife is from there. My brother in-law has trained praying mantis there and has some ties. If they are reputable masters from Hong Kong , They would be known. AND please , would you have those documents scanned as you offered? My eldest stepdaughter can speak , read and write Cantonese and Mandarin fluently. I know many other Asian folk as well. If it is real I WILL be able to have it translated.

"GMS also pulled out a stack of various degrees from an assortment of martial arts disciplines who have awarded/ accredited him 6th, 7th , 8th, 9th degrees and so on."
From whom? Again , just throwing up vague claims that aren't supportable doesn't mean it's true. It means you are negligent in backing up your claims.

"and really it personally doesn’t matter to me as I am also of the belief that true skill represents and defines"
yur awfully naive. What have you been able to compare yourself to?

"and let’s face it has anyone come close to cracking 1270lbs of ice lately?"
I LOVE how you fall back to this claim. Uh, D.J. why do you think this record has not been broken? It's because ice breaking is widely considered the easiest break to fake. There is a breaking federation. Call them. They will laugh.
And if this such an important point for you to make, how come nobody else in your group does it? He didn't teach it to y'all because he doesn't know how himself. What he performed was a parlor trick. Why didn't he try to break other things? Never heard of him doing that.

"On that note, we also really don’t feel the need to compile a “paper resume” I think that the accomplishments of GMS hold there own value as does his System"
This is possibly the lamest thing I've heard. Why do you wonder people think of you guys as such frauds? But then again there is NO POSSIBLE way for you to ever have this evidence or "paper trail" , cuz all your claims are lies and unsupportable exagerration.
D.J. , that statement is just short of admitting that you know everything in your org. is sham.
Making unsupportable claims is criminal. Please see post below.

And I would like to add this false sense humility you post with is laughable.

Sincerely ,
Jeff Koloski

TKFBS · monk Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 62

I don't really have a dog in the race. However, I think the cowpie boys should have a hard look at what you can legally claim. If someone were particularly litigious all you have to do is a little research.

For your consideration:

Business Practices and Consumer Protection Act
[SBC 2004] CHAPTER 2
Part 2 — Unfair Practices

Division 1 — Deceptive Acts or Practices

Deceptive acts or practices
4 (1) In this Division:

"deceptive act or practice" means, in relation to a consumer transaction,

(a) an oral, written, visual, descriptive or other representation by a supplier, or

(b) any conduct by a supplier

that has the capability, tendency or effect of deceiving or misleading a consumer or guarantor;

"representation" includes any term or form of a contract, notice or other document used or relied on by a supplier in connection with a consumer transaction.

(2) A deceptive act or practice by a supplier may occur before, during or after the consumer transaction.

(3) Without limiting subsection (1), one or more of the following constitutes a deceptive act or practice:

(a) a representation by a supplier that goods or services

(i) have sponsorship, approval, performance characteristics, accessories, ingredients, quantities, components, uses or benefits that they do not have,

(ii) are of a particular standard, quality, grade, style or model if they are not,

(iii) have a particular prior history or usage that they do not have, including a representation that they are new if they are not,

(iv) are available for a reason that differs from the fact,

(v) are available if they are not available as represented,

(vi) were available in accordance with a previous representation if they were not,

(vii) are available in quantities greater than is the fact, or

(viii) will be supplied within a stated period if the supplier knows or ought to know that they will not;

(b) a representation by a supplier

(i) that the supplier has a sponsorship, approval, status, affiliation or connection that the supplier does not have,

(ii) that a service, part, replacement or repair is needed if it is not,

(iii) that the purpose or intent of a solicitation of, or a communication with, a consumer by a supplier is for a purpose or intent that differs from the fact,

(iv) that a consumer transaction involves or does not involve rights, remedies or obligations that differs from the fact,

(v) about the authority of a representative, employee or agent to negotiate the final terms of a consumer transaction if the representation differs from the fact,

(vi) that uses exaggeration, innuendo or ambiguity about a material fact or that fails to state a material fact, if the effect is misleading,

(vii) that a consumer will obtain a benefit for helping the supplier to find other potential customers if it is unlikely that the consumer will obtain the benefit,

(viii) that appears in an objective form such as an editorial, documentary or scientific report if the representation is primarily made to sell goods or services, unless the representation states that it is an advertisement or promotion, or

(ix) to arrange for the consumer an extension of credit for a fee, unless the fee is deducted from the advance, as defined in section 57 [definitions];

(c) a representation by a supplier about the total price of goods or services if

(i) a person could reasonably conclude that a price benefit or advantage exists but it does not,

(ii) the price of a unit or instalment is given in the representation, and the total price of the goods or services is not given at least the same prominence, or

(iii) the supplier's estimate of the price is materially less than the price subsequently determined or demanded by the supplier unless the consumer has expressly consented to the higher price before the goods or services are supplied;

(d) a prescribed act or practice.

Prohibition and burden of proof
5 (1) A supplier must not commit or engage in a deceptive act or practice in respect of a consumer transaction.

(2) If it is alleged that a supplier committed or engaged in a deceptive act or practice, the burden of proof that the deceptive act or practice was not committed or engaged in is on the supplier.

Wow, interesting read.

J.K.

Swanstrom · troll Joined: 27 Oct 2006 Posts: 8

Mr. Koloski,

Firstly, I don’t know if the designate “Cowpie Boys” is suppose to be some sort of lame discriminatory remark to myself and the other member of our organization and our Western Canadian roots? If so…we are quite proud of our Western Canadian origins.

Secondly, since you are so “litigious” you may want to look at the difference of civil vs. criminal law before throwing around the word “criminal”. Civil is defined by the part of the law that encompasses business, contracts etc; to which you have illustrated in your example (from whatever unknown source) in regards to us. Where as the term “criminal” is for anyone that has committed a crime as defined by the Criminal Code of Canada, at least North of the border. You may also want to reference recent case law in regards to defamation on the Internet and the accountability to the author of libel (written) slander that negatively reflect a living person's reputation. The civil case brought against Grand Master Simon many years ago was dropped, there were reasons for that. Perhaps you should also read the entire court transcript and not just fragments placed on the Internet for various agendas. It’s wonderful to see that you are a back seat lawyer too.

Now to your original letter I’ll make this short, as this response is basically a waste of time anyways. I was planning to make a brief response to the personal e-mail you had sent me…however since you have placed it here I will answer you here. As I have stated before I don’t have an abundance of spare time and quiet frankly a response to you has rated pretty low on my priorities and that is why I haven’t replied in a week.

We realize that you think Grand Master Simon, as well as ourselves, are all frauds and charlatans. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it…because frankly we could careless about your opinion. I take it that you have trained in our system at one point and after asking around to discover what your abnormal aversion to us is …nobody even knows who you are. Sufficed to say, you are only known to us by a few confrontational Internet rants that you have authored attempting to provoke some sort of a reaction out of us. Basically that is the extent of your significance to us…and if none of us (all with over 20+ years in the system and some having trained at every single studio) even know who you are…I would deduce that would be because you must not have been here very long and achieved little in our Style (which I’m sure you are most pleased with). Conceivably, trying to be an agitator seeking attention (ie. my lack of reply to your e-mail) might be your biggest claim to fame.

So this is why I don’t know why you perceived to be some expert on our Style? If you were you’d know that our System in relation to Senior Grand Master Ed Parker’s System and other styles have some similarities in them as well many differences. Our System does not try to mimic his or any other style.

You constantly demand that we verify ourselves to you…why? You are a nonentity to us and I could concern myself little with trying to please you because I don’t feel that that is even a possibility. I have provided answers and obviously you are not satisfied with those answers. We will present items as and when we see fit, not on the request of some Internet persecutor. If you don’t like that or it is not suitable to you…again…we could absolutely careless.

Seriously Mr. Kolowski…you do not represent any organization that I’m aware of and yet you stand and formulate ludicrous demands upon us for some sort antiquated accreditation because you can’t “Google Search” various points we’ve stated. Any and every system and style has an origin and a beginning, we have stated ours and if it doesn’t meet with your exalted expectations to what you think we should provide you…once again…we could absolutely careless…and Sir, with the demeanor and conduct you have demonstrate…do you really expect us to give you any legitimate merit? We will not engage in this game of yours…so now go stomp your feet, shake your fist in the air…howl at the moon or whatever it is that you do.

I have hoped that this Forum would be a positive place where practitioners of the Moh Pai Style could connect and socialize and I think that potential is still there. I believe that there are many that come to this site that still enjoy the Moh Pai training. I think I can speak for a few by saying that if you don’t like the Style and its background then go do something you do enjoy. Unless someone has a gun to your head and is making you train Moh Pai, I can’t see what bizarre enthrallment you get by constantly coming here to engage in irresolvable quarrels with people.

We obviously don’t and won’t see eye to eye on many things. Now hopefully, you have more of a life than to sit on the Internet and rage on endlessly on how much you despise our System, us, and Grand Master Simon…if you don’t please go seek some kind of seek professional help and possible medication and move on with life. In the mean time I guess, in your opinion, we will have to muddle through our naivety, ignorance, and these “terrible techniques” with our “simulated” System in blissful ignorance to all things truly “authentic”.

I have attempted to be as polite as possible on this reply. I do not require a response however, I doubt that you can abstain and desist yourself from making one. I will no longer be wasting my energies in totally pointless correspondence with you. If you some how feel that your manhood is fractured and you need a childish response…well…have at it.

Good day to you Sir,

DJ Swanstrom

TKFBS · monk Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 62

Hi D.J.
You can address me as Jeff. I don't care for the pseudo-formality TKF is famous for. Besides you did spell my name wrong. You did it correct once , twice seemed too difficult. Sign of a weak mind perhaps?

For your clarification , I do this because I love the martial arts and the deceit that you foist upon consumers is shamefull.

I loves me Western Canada. I jumped the border for opportunity and a change of weather. I have family in Vancouver , Edmonton , SASKATOON, Winnipeg. I lived in Calgary for a year and would go back.
Don't make assumptions. I'll send you the decoded meaning in a prvt. e-mail.

As to your haughty opinion that I'm not worth responding to , that is your downfall. I address all the concerns leveled at your organization that any citizen /prospective client has the right to know. If you can effectively deal with me and answer questions truthfully , you have better chance at staying in business (I'm guessing the not for profit model went out the window?)

Per your ad hominem attack . ( I've dealt with this before on this site. Seems that not answering questions might be a prerequisite for blackbelt w/ you guys. Here.. so you can learn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)

I was with your organization and directly under the people that trained you for 4 years. I trained in Winnipeg mainly , ended up in Calgary and had visited Edmonton several times during my training. I had trained under Shergold, Piercey , Mcdonald , Bagwell, Ugh and yeah, Sparrow. You should be able to recognize one or two of those. That is plenty of time to get a feel for a an art/style or even get a university degree. It wasn't a short amount of time. As a matter of fact perhaps check with Richard Shergold. He gave me a blackbelt certificate. Since then it's been onwards and upwards. I have over 20 years experience myself.... but in a far more intricate system... that s'posedly gave birth to the mess you train. Ihave been a private student of Larry Tatum's , Frank Trejo's, David German. I have had lessons with many high ranking blackbelts that you have not heard of. I am on my fourth year of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. I trained 3 of those @ Rorion's school and currently working with a high ranking student of Eddie Bravo's.
I think this very much makes me an expert on the effectiveness or makeup of your offering. As a matter of fact , and please quote me on this. I confidently feel I've eclipsed everyone in your organization in regards to skill and martial arts knowledge. If all you have ever done is Simons version of a martial art , you are inferior to me. No matter how long you have been at it.
I know the first thing y'all are going to criticize is my ego, but the reality is I've had more quality training than anyone in your organization, including Olaf.

"I have attempted to be as polite as possible on this reply. I do not require a response however, I doubt that you can abstain and desist yourself from making one. I will no longer be wasting my energies in totally pointless correspondence with you. If you some how feel that your manhood is fractured and you need a childish response…well…have at it."

Pretty please. Get off your high horse and answer the questions in the previous post. You won't get rid of me until you do.

Jeff Koloski

MrE2Me2 · One ring to rule them Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 1099

To All,

In American Kenpo they call it, ‘The Harmony of Discord’.

Essentially, there is no ‘One Ring to Rule Then All’.

Basically, the fourteen plus different American Kenpo Organizations don’t fight in public.

Larry Tatum doesn’t talk disrespectfully of his former teacher, the late Ed Parker. Larry has his own system to keep him busy.

http://www.ltatum.com/

Larry also doesn’t post disrespectfully of his former student Jeff Speakman. In the meantime, Jeff has started his own version of American Kenpo called ‘Speakman 5.0’. I imagine his various schools located in seventeen different countries keep him too busy to vent hatred and bitterness.

http://www.jeffspeakman.com/

And Jeff recently broke up with his long time partner John Sherman (but again, no back stabbing).

I believe that Larry also used to teach Juan Serrano and Cliff Seminario (of YouTube’s Casa de Kenpo fame). These two guys have branched out and gone their own way. Through their videos, it is possible to get all the American Kenpo techniques up to brown belt and many of those too. And that doesn’t include the forms, sets, conditioning drills, etc. But again, I have found no backstabbing, bitterness or hatred.

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=Casa+de+kenpo&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=xo3qSuLcFI20tgfehvU6&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQqwQwAA#

No American Kenpo exponent talks of Frank Trejo weighing one hundred pounds more than he should.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uopdSsuvn-E

I could go on and on about Gracie jujitsu being taught by a Kodokan judoka. But they say it so much better here…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracie_Jiu_Jitsu

It’s an art promoted by a man who was later convicted of assault. At his hearing the court said, “"Today it was with Manoel Rufini dos Santos, Tomorrow it will be us."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9lio_Gracie

And to his credit, Helio Gracie did reflect on his misconduct. He did change too (and took his new art to the ‘Vale Tudo’ cage).

My point remains the same, post what you like and can do and are able to do.

There isn’t ever going to be ‘One Ring to Rule Us’ either…

It would be nice to be able to ask things like, “What techniques and tactics do you prefer to use in defending your groin during a sparring match?”

Or even, “How much contact do you allow your beginning students to exert on each other?”

It would be nice to have more input from other members.

It is safe to say that there are many different factions of Moh, yet few (if any) of these factions like each other much. That doesn’t mean we can’t be courteous.

I would very much like to read everyone’s thoughts on this (even if we disagree).

Regards, MrE2Me2

Without prejudice
_________________
We’re naught but humble pirates.
- Captain Barbossa (Pirates of the Caribbean)

mohforumadmin · Site Admin Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 21

After receiving complaints over the last few months from several different parties, the moderators of this forum have chosen to make an amendment/ addition to the rules.

You will see it as the new #2 rule "Abuse of other forum members".

http://templekungforum.14.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=4

Please follow these rules or your privileges will be removed.

Thank You

TKFBS · monk Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 62

Hi Robin.
From your chair staring into cyberspace it seems just as you put it. I have heard nearly everyone on that list say deprecating things about each other. There is no were near the amount of harmony going on that you think. If you were ever fortunate enough to get close to one of the people on that list , even a friendly e-mail relationship, your opinion would be different. There's actually an immense amount of backstabbing.
I can forward you personal e-mails for Frank , Juan and Cliff if you are that bold.

btw I think it's Trevor Sherman , not John. I recently had a conversation w/ some people @ a Bob White seminar and apparently the split wasn't amicable. I'm sure Speakman's e-mail is out there attached to one of his websites. He would be easy to reach for an opinion..... rather than to pontificate.

There's also plenty o crap talked on many of the kenpo websites. I'm not sure which one's yur reading.

all the best
Jeff

RD · fighter Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 107

I would be willing to bet money that TKFBS and DaveS are one and the same...

[edited by original author]

grasshopper · Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject:

Hey RD

I can tell you for a fact they are NOT the same person without even looking. DaveS I knew personally in the late 1990's in Mississauga when I was a teacher for TKF there and he was a student. As for for TKFBS aka JK I have shared a few emails with him outside of this forum.

Definately not the same person.

Just an FYI.
_________________
This is my happening and it freaks me out!

http://www.zenshack.net

DaveS · black belt Joined: 30 Jun 2006 Posts: 88

I'll take that bet RD. Funny you would think that. The registration was pure coincidence.

I must say my opinion of Moh has softened somewhat since I left. It is what it is and the work outs at the club were great. That I do miss. Unlike TKFBS I stayed on quite a bit longer although I wouldn't discount Jeff's experience in Kenpo.

As to DJ Swanstroms response, I give him credit for trying to provide a resoonse that is non-confrontational. What's interesting is how it keeps coming up that Simon has nothing to prove to any of us yet the clubs were always filled with celebrity pictures.....Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, some football player. Yet he never put up any picture, or reference to any of his previous teachers, e.g. Fu Yen, this Chinese document referred to from the 3 masters. Based on anything seen of Simon and his self-promotion these would have been posted in every studio. Please post it. I'll have it translated as my sifu is Chinese.

I really can't say much about all of the 8th degree awards he received but if you could scan and post the Seibukan Karate 8th degree award he claims to have that would be really interesting. I checked with the organization and they have no record of him ever being associated with them. He even got the name wrong when he quoted it as "House of Holy Alliance" when it's actually "House of Holy Arts". They said any black belt would know this. I'll post the email response if you care to see it or I can PM it to you. It would be great to see a validation of of his claim. It's pretty obvious why someone might think he was making it up but if you have the access to the document and posted it then that would put that one to bed in his favor. Saying Crossman has seen them doesn't mean much really. Anyone could say that.

BTW, he doesn't know the correct spelling of the university he got his 1/20 of a literature PHD from. He was very specific when he said "GENA" when it's actually "JENA". Kind of ironic a literary scholar got the spelling wrong (that's from the transcript).

D

RD · fighter Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 107

Ok thanks Grasshopper. I'll drop it as it's not worth arguing about.

[edited by original author]

DaveS · black belt Joined: 30 Jun 2006 Posts: 88

[quote:="RD"]Hmmm. I'm not totally convinced. Let's just say I'm skeptical. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now Grasshopper. Thanks.

DaveS, I don't believe in coincidences. But I'll drop it as it's not worth getting into an argument about.

RD[/quote:]

That's just strange RD as you would be arguing with yourself. You may want to get that checked.

Hey Jeff, how did we manage to exchange PM's with ourselves! LMAO!

The strange suspicions of the old TKF still exist after all. Priceless.

Grasshopper, those were some good classes...Friday club then Pai Hui Shi. Killer workout.

MrE2Me2 · One ring to rule them Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 1099

Hello Jeff,

Seeing as you prefer to be casual, I’ll be casual too.

You posted, “From your chair staring into cyberspace it seems just as you put it.”

My response:

You really don’t know anything about me (no offense).

My attempt (in my previous post) to get others to be civil, is now clearly stated in the second rule of this forum.

2. Do not abuse other forum members; this includes name calling and challenges. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

You posted, “I have heard nearly everyone on that list say deprecating things about each other…”

My response:

Of that I have no doubt. Wherever there are groups of people there will be politics.

But as I also said in my previous post: “There isn’t ever going to be ‘One Ring to Rule Us’ either…”

You offered, “I can forward you personal e-mails for Frank , Juan and Cliff if you are that bold.”

It isn’t a question of bold; it’s a matter of courtesy and truth.

But if you’re going to email them anyway, please make sure to send on my thanks to Juan and Cliff for their hard work…

And when you email Frank, please add that I know from personal experience what it is to be an older, crippled up and overweight martial artist. Therefore, if he only older and overweight, then he is already ahead of the game, as far as I’m concerned.

I wish all of them…how did you phrase it… All the best!

Regards, Robin

B.T.Y. Thanks for the correction from John to Trevor.

Without prejudice
_________________
We’re naught but humble pirates.
- Captain Barbossa (Pirates of the Caribbean)

92 · Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:53 am Post subject:

TKFBS:

DaveS · black belt Joined: 30 Jun 2006 Posts: 88

92 wrote:

"DaveS:

It's not the end of the world, but alas, I am quite sure you are definitely not TKFBS. Don't let anyone confuse you and make you think otherwise! Wink

Happy (Scary?) Halloween, Everyone!"

Oh no! 92 is RD! 92, try not to let your split personality problem confuse you. Wink. Smile

Just kidding of course.

On a serious note though I'm not trying to fan some fire regarding the request for any documents that DJ Swantsrom and company can provide. It would be great if someone on that side did post something of substance that would put some closure to the skepticism of Simon's history. If that were the case this circle of questions would end immediately.

In the martial arts world any masters I've personally met and train with consider it an honour to their teachers and influences to recognize them. It creates a sense of continuity for their training and it keeps the teachings of their teachers alive after they have passed on. It's always been an important part of the culture. If someone ever questioned me on the authenticity and training of my teachers (except Simon of course) I could provide a history, lineage, pictures, etc at the drop of a hat. In the case of TKF, claiming things verbally and never once substantiating it with documents they claim to exist yet never producing them will inevitably lead to skepticism at the very least.

The census among everyone I trained with in Mississauga, Toronto, and Hamilton is universally the same. Skeptical. We all invested a lot of sweat and faith into the system and it's founder so, just because we left and train other styles, doesn't mean we don't have a vested interest in our own training history. We get questions about our training and teachers by other martial artists. Typically the history of TKF is avoided or not spoken of in a positive manner. That's unfortunate and really doesn't represent the goals of what DJ swanstrom and company are trying to accomplish.

Mr. Swanstrom, if you want to put a end to the arguments, skeptism, or whatever or however you want to refer to it perhaps creating a more comprehensive history on your site would help? Just a suggestion.

D

TKFBS · monk Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 62

Hello Robin,
I wanted to touch on the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.
I really don't like the style in which you compose your posts. It's basically the same problem I have with organized religion. Any preacher/priest can virtually decipher whatever they want from the bible. You do the same with the internet. You are no kind of authority on anything kenpo. Yet you feel you have an knowledge of the inner workings 'cuz ya read everything on the web.
IIRC correctly you are a member of Kenpotalk/Martialtalk? Look up postings by Ron "Doc" Chapel. He has a gem of quote.
" It is easier to quote than to know"
I think of you when I read that buddy.
He freely discusses his opinions of other people. He has said some stuff about Jeff Speakman. Jeff Speakman has talked a ton of crap about the Tracy's. Should you ever get the fortitude to go see a kenpo senior in seminar don't be too surprised to hear the unbiased (and sometimes harsh) opinions. In my experience with seminars ( a ton btw) it's commonplace to hear that type of honesty.
As for the Gracies..... , well I didn't read any of your links . Again, I have been there. You speculate on the interweb from yur armchair.
I'll indulge you in one cut n paste link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bxiDcz1Nr0

Lovely little youtube piece of Ralph and Renzo discussing B.J. Penn.

BTW . NSFW. Some cuss words .

Don't bother to respond Robin. D.J. was the only one holding my interest.

RD. You are precious. Don't let anyone tell you different.

jkinla3@aol.com

You still have that don't you? Why do you have to ask Da Grasshopper?
Drop me a line. RU scared? I bet Dave would be more than happy to give you an e-mail addy as well. Then you can rest easy.

All the Best
Jeff Koloski

MrE2Me2 · One ring to rule them Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 1099

Hello Jeff,

You posted, “Don't bother to respond Robin.”

My response: I’d ask you if you are kidding but we both know you aren’t. You attack me repeatedly and then tell me not to say anything.

You posted, “I really don't like the style in which you compose your posts…”

My response: Yes, I got that.

I’d also like to take this opportunity to inform you that when we had our disagreement last year on the other forums, my ‘Yahoo’ homepage had a huge increase in views. I went and followed the links of those viewers and I saw that many of them were very busy talking about the art they trained in. Many did not even take the time to respond to ‘your’ vents’, much less to my YouTube pieces.

You seem to be alone in your hatred and bitterness…

You posted, “…You are no kind of authority on anything kenpo…”

My response: I’ve never trained in American Kenpo or any of its variations. I’ve never made the claim to be any kind of expert on the Kenpo that is derived from Mr. Mitose, Mr. Chow or Mr. Parker.

On the other hand, I have spent a long time training, ‘Moh Kempo’, and its derivative K.i.s.a.e. Kempo.

Also, American Kenpo is not the only system I have looked at on this forum. Something you seem to ignore whenever you post to me.

You posted, “I think of you when I read that buddy.”

My response: You have made it abundantly clear that we are not ‘buddies’.

You posted, “…Lovely little youtube piece of Ralph and Renzo discussing B.J. Penn.”

My response: I couldn’t care less about this and frankly, I’m surprised that you have brought it up as it does not apply to Moh Kempo in any way.

You posted, “BTW . NSFW. Some cuss words .”

My response: This is a sneaky and underhanded way to get around the rules of this forum, specifically Rule Number 1. No Foul Language…

It is the sort of thing I’d expect out of an undisciplined and immature individual.

And last but by no means least.

You posted, “…Look up postings by Ron "Doc" Chapel. He has a gem of quote.
" It is easier to quote than to know"…

My response: So you’re quoting…

On that note, I bid you good day.

Regards, Robin

Without Prejudice
_________________
We’re naught but humble pirates.
- Captain Barbossa (Pirates of the Caribbean)

RD · fighter Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 107

Jeff Koloski wrote:

TKFBS · monk Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 62

"You seem to be alone in your hatred and bitterness…"

Actually. I have a lot of fun. I know that there are these die-hard individuals who believe in their own little made up universe. And their little universe is terminally flawed. I know this . I have been there and beyond. It amuses the heck outta me to see y'all still beliveing in anything Simon. When the truth is out there. The emperor wears no clothes Robin. It's huge joke.

"
My response: I’ve never trained in American Kenpo or any of its variations. I’ve never made the claim to be any kind of expert on the Kenpo that is derived from Mr. Mitose, Mr. Chow or Mr. Parker.

On the other hand, I have spent a long time training, ‘Moh Kempo’, and its derivative K.i.s.a.e. Kempo"

Let's be perfectly clear on this. The only "KENPO/KEMPO" influence on what you do came directly from Ed Parker. And by watching you , Sifu Shawn , and McAndrew(?) have put out on youtube and what I know from training what I've trained , there is nothing "Kenpo/Kempo" in what you do. Simon nor anyone you have ever trained with knows anything "kempo".
That you call it Moh or Kisae Kempo is false advertising. If you want to call yourself anything "Kempo" would you please be more specific as to your lineage or other association that would convince me you are simply not false advertising?

"You posted, “BTW . NSFW. Some cuss words .”

My response: This is a sneaky and underhanded way to get around the rules of this forum, specifically Rule Number 1. No Foul Language…

It is the sort of thing I’d expect out of an undisciplined and immature individual."

Save the character assasination. This was in direct response to your Gracie cut'n' paste.
The point being that even Gracies talk like regular individuals , no matter what you perceive from the comforts of your chair.
But of course , you missed the point.
I responsibly labeled this clip , as is customary and I let you know about extreme language.
You then were free to watch it of your own accord. I cannot be responsible for feelings.
You really feel the need to lash out , don't you Robin.
Let me re-iterate. I am not the one feeling bitter and angry. I'm happy I can share in the way that I do. You are projecting bitterness and anger because that is what you feel from my posts. My posts contain the absolute truths regarding the org. that you represent. That you feel the way you do is not my fault. Uggghh , You Can't Handle the Truth.
There's a quote fur ya.

J.K.

MrE2Me2 · One ring to rule them Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 1099

Hello TKFBS,

You posted, “Actually. I have a lot of fun…”

My response: Please explain how this is ‘fun’; even defined as, “playful joking, often at the expense of another”.

You posted, “The only "KENPO/KEMPO" influence on what you do came directly from Ed Parker…”

My response: Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even you.

You posted, “Save the character assassination…”

My response: On the contrary, it is you who have deliberately sustained your attack upon me, not the other way around.

You posted, “The point being that even Gracie’s talk like regular individuals…”

My response: My point is still that this has nothing to do with Moh Kempo.

You posted, “…I cannot be responsible for feelings.”

My response: Thank goodness for that!

You posted, “You Can't Handle the Truth. There's a quote fur ya.”

My response,: So you are quoting a fictional character who is not only an accomplice to murder; he starts his confession to that with this quote.

Regards, MrE2Me2

Without Prejudice
_________________
We’re naught but humble pirates.
- Captain Barbossa (Pirates of the Caribbean)

G.A. · troll Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Posts: 5

Greetings to all ~

I Thank everyone for taking the time reading my post. I will try my best to express myself clearly.

Perhaps now is the time to start a new page, and forget about all the false elligations that we the members of TKF have created against our own. In this case a few of us have turned their back on GM Simon by trying to proof a point about him and his real history!!! How worst of situation can it be?

He is now an 80 years old. Is this a thank you pay back to him? for all the goodness and kindness he has brought to us over these years. Just remember the old days, full of happiness real smiles' each time we the members have gathered in our classes and in seminars. Sharing the same with the outside world as a reflection.

Why should we care to know where Grand Master Simon had learned his martial Arts from???? Perhaps he himself do not wish to share the origin source, for his own reason. And / or he had actually shared the true story.

The transcript is an illusion we also have created it in our mind, from a web post that has no trace to it!@! It is sad to know that we have allowed it destroying something we once appreciated. *Gossip is a serious act that can destroy family lives and its traditions and the whole system...*

With all respect, i request for members if they do not have something nice to say from now on about Grand master Simon / his teaching / history,.., then please keep it to yourself. We have heard enough over the last few years. No need to go back to same old story. Instead, lets please open our mind to a new beginning.

TKF was not all about belt ranking, competitions, or using the techniques for street fighting, rather for protection / self defense, spiritual, mind and body strength, confidence, love, kindness, respect , brotherly & sisterhood.

It is a shame to betray our own teacher, with this kinna distrust and investigations made by a few of the members. It is coming to the point as a harassment to our human mind. Therefore, again please going forward leave us be, live in peace.

Respect to our teacher, long live Grand Master Simon ~ bows ~

peace and namaste ~

G.A. · troll Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Posts: 5

Hello,

Is there a studio here in Vancouver that follows Grand Master system?

I have checked ZEN SHACK site, it seems is under re-design/updates. Is the studio still operating?

Thank you for your attention.