Will Moh survive as a style?
I see it at it's weakest in many decades. Will the style survive and be recognized on it's own?

I think it will last a long time, just look at sifu shawns school, descendent of Master E. Bruneau, as an example of a thriving Moh Kempo stylist. I think Moh will be more succesful if it evolves and is taught as part of a broader group of styles, not on it's own as TKF did. I train a variety of styles now, within a two hour training session I might train several Moh forms, Pai Hu Shih, Xingyi, Balintawak, Tai Chi and/ or Wing Chung. Sometimes I only train one form from Moh (Usually Lung 1, 2 & 3), while sometimes I practice several with techniques (I did my Kempo 1, 2 & 3 today). There is so much to offer within this style, and now having been exposed to ther disciplines I better understand what works from Moh and what doesn't (In application). Don't forget Moh Kempo as taught at TKF has it's roots in Ed Parker American Kempo which is hugely popular. I think if you aknowlege those roots it will gain in popularity, especially if taught with other styles. My $.02 on the subject

To all, Very well put Grasshopper. :-D I tend to look at it a bit differently. Those things that have usefulness survive. There are many things in Moh that are useful. I believe it will survive for a long time. North, this is a very interesting topic! If I might draw a comparison or two: When I look at the works of Shakespeare, a couple of things stand out. The use of the English language is very different than today. But there is the pure passion and realistic emotional responses of the characters. Even several hundred years later, these works are regarded as Classic! He survives, even today. I once saw a show on the dark ages. Housing was a common activity. Most peasants used “wattle and daub” to build with. Yet today, we don’t find many houses built with straw, clay, branches and feces (scat). Outside of anthropological interest, this housing method has disappeared. Grasshopper made mention of Moh’s connection to American Kenpo Karate. Ed Parker’s teacher, “Thunderbolt” Chow, is often described as being eccentric. There are some who say he comes from a dysfunctional family. But no one is rude or unpleasant in their posts about him. (Nor is anyone ever rude or unpleasant when discussing Ed Parker.) But even today, there are former students who would revile and backstab O. E. Simon. Given the fact that he is retired and eighty, that is just a sad state of affairs. Why bring these seemingly opposite points of view up? Because I believe that there are enough guys like Sifu Shawn that the students of Moh will survive. I believe that we will go the way of our American Kenpo Cousins and grow. It’s my opinion that Moh will grow because it is based on solid survival characteristics. (But then, so are most good, dependable martial arts.) As I said, a good topic, North! :-D Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Here is my two cents: In my brief training at TKF what I got out of it was good foundation of the fundamentals. Horse stance, bow and arrow stance, unicorn stance etc. The forms compared to some traditional chinese forms are lacking, but when compared to some basic karate forms they are on par. I think egos were hurt when the truth about Olaf started to come out. When some TKF practioners started to look elsewhere and started to learn a chinese form realized the difference between Olaf's kenpo (claiming kung fu) and a true kung fu style they felt cheated and could be why one would no longer want to train Moh. What we have to do, at the very least, is say that IMHO that one can take from TKF the foundations of martial arts. Another way to look at it, if the Chinese martial arts were to remain closed doors all we would all think that TKF is a true chinese martial art taken from a temple a in China. Maybe we owe O.E. Simon something for creating a style and a self delusional title, as maybe this expediated the Chinese community to opening their doors to non Chinese. Once again I am not challenging the fact that Simon could woop some a$$, although I wish he would have been honest with himself first and then everyone else.

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Hello North, You posted, “My first thoughts on this subject were that with the current reputation and number of schools dedicated to Moh. Hung Gar and Wing Chun for example have schools in almost every city. They will likely survive a long time. Moh on the other hand may fade into that rarely heard of art that then vannishes altogether.” Funny that you should bring this up now…I just finished watching Jet Li’s “Fearless” on the weekend. In it as in “Fists of Fury”, the Chinese people are referred to as “the sick men of Asia”. Yet they are anything but… During the Boxer’s Rebellion, many kung fu masters were killed. During WWII, the Japanese Imperial Army tried to conquer China. During the Cultural Revolution, many kung fu masters were killed or driven into exile. Yet despite these overwhelming catastrophes, the art of kung fu has persevered. It has gone on to bloom. You posted, “I just feel that the future is going to have people picking what style they want to learn with some research beforehand. The lack of availability of moh makes it hard for it to thrive.” Moh may not be as popular as some arts are commercially (today) but then commercial survival isn’t always a primary survival characteristic. I have found the practitioners of Moh to be as ardent and focused as any at anytime. You posted, “The reputation of O.E. Simon doesn't help.” Well, that reputation that is bad is also part of a reputation that started with him being a "Bad" man to tangle with. Moreover: As time goes on, I believe that bad reputations can be lived down. For example: I know of at least one traditional kung fu grandmaster that was so heavily addicted to cocaine that his senior students had to take the business end of running his schools away from him. Yet his school is one of the most successful anywhere (even though he has passed on). You posted, “The lack of promotion in a public setting such as tournaments further reduces it's exposure.” On the contrary, there are more competent Moh Black Belts around than ever before. And then there is this forum that is successfully promoting the unity of its art and members. As well, there are more schools now that teach Moh than ever in its history. A few are professional and some are backyard affairs but they all teach Moh. You posted, “You don't think these things will do the style in?” Surely, you jest :-D No, I can foresee a long and successful life for this art. (That is provided we remain strong, courageous and honest). The teachers and students of Moh have many fine survival characteristics. We are strong, flexible, courageous, generous, humble…:-D You posted, “Perhaps I am too pessamistic?” (I think maybe you are yanking our chain a bit here :-D ) However: At the end of WWII, the Japanese people were defeated and their lives were forever changed. As part of this change, new practitioners of the art of Karate-do had to be found, again. The so-called “Golden Era” of the 1940’s in Karate, was gone. Yet, it rose from this defeat and from the abject horror of war to become a force in the martial arts world. So too, can Moh. You posted (as your sig), “HAPPINESS IS A CHOICE”. Yes it is. Look at the journey that you yourself are on. And look at the role that Moh has had in assisting you on this path. If I were asked to point to someone who had good experiences in martial arts, I wouldn't have far to look. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Hello North I agree with Mr E2Me2 that this indeed a very interesting topic. For several reasons. First of all, I believe Moo kempo to be a very effective art. I also however believe it to really be a foundation art. And that all foundations are designed to be built upon. There is an entire generation of Martial Artists that are training arts under instructors that have there foundation in Moo kempo. Moo kempo will not disappear. Wether people agree with me or not is up to them. We are all entitled to believe what we want. I see the influence of Moo Kempo in many clubs. I see numerous people performing kempo forms at tournaments. Will moo kempo survive and always look the way it did in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's ... of course not. It did not look the same in the 80's as it looked in the 60's. It does not look the same in seattle as it does in edmonton. Its is always going to change, but that does not mean it wont survive. Moo kempo, as with many of the arts and teachers of the early Martial arts boom here in North America were foundation arts. And they have all evolved. Does that mean the arts are dissappearing????? Things like the UFC is going to have an effect on all traditional arts. There will be an entire generation who sees no use in Katas, or forms and meditation and reflection, or self improvement in areas outside of fighting. Arts that work on developing the individual as a whole are threatened in general, maybe. Not just Moo kempo. I am a product of the Moo kempo foundation as taught to me by Sifu Ed. My students are a product of the Moo kempo foundation. It is still here alive , well and ever evolving. I beleive we have already established a term for this. Martial Darwinism. Moo kempo, the next evolution. sifu shawn

:) Well I teach the styles at my school seperately from one another so that the students can compare them, see how each style approaches the same scenario, and judge for themselves which works better. Alot of schools seem to blend the styles as you mentioned. So we see Moo Kempo as a foundation or intermixed but don't really have too many people learning it as a stand alone style. I like to have my students train it by itself. There is a way of moving in Kempo that is different than other styles. The same as Bagua, Hung Gar, BSL Xing Yi etc all have a unique way of moving. (By moving I mean the rythm, intensity and fluidity of the body as a whole, regardless of attacking or defending.) Schools I have visited that blend styles tend to have only 1 way of moving, that being the way the instructor sees as the best. I believe that understanding the difference between the movements is important. I also believe that being able to choose to change your movement is a very effective method of deception when sparring against trained opponants. You might appear to be attacking with very direct and forceful methods at 3/4 distance only to suddenly begin circling with less abrupt attacks and an entirely different tempo at 1/2 distance. Similar to "No stance remains the same" only on a larger scale. Anyhow, in order to allow students to recognize the differences between styles they have to be taught seperately and completely. (Imho) My students can look at a technique and tell you which style it is from (Of the ones they have trained of course.) In this way the style continues on under it's own catagory and isn't disolved into other styles. I am sure some techniques will be altered as time passes in the natural way. Moo Kempo works better than other styles for people of certain sizes or people who have previous training. I have students with a TKD or Karate background who find Moh to be an easier style to use. As such I feel it is important to keep it alive as a seperate style.

North, Anyhow, in order to allow students to recognize the differences between styles they have to be taught seperately and completely. (Imho) Agreed upon 100%. Unfortunatley with things like the UFC. Many people are not interested in traditional arts anymore. They like ground and pound or kickboxing type sparring. Kempo is a very good place to start. A lot of people coming to train martial arts nowadays dont realize there is a difference between arts. You're either a striker or a grappler.Thats what they think the difference is. Its totally superficial but thats the way they see it. Every once in a while you end up witha student who is interested in the "ARTS". They want to disect the system they are learning. They are intested in the individual arts. In my club when a student shows an independant interest in learning to break down the system into its sub systems, then they are ( imho) ready to start the journey in becoming a Martial Artist. They have decided they want to know what techniques come from what art, and are ready to start learning . Most people really dont care. Most dont stay long enough to make the arts a way of life. A couple or three years is a long time for most people to train. Out of those that make it to black, how many quit??? Many think black belt is the destination. But we all know it is just the beginning. I like to give people a well rouded foundation, Basic stances, basic blocks, basic kicks and strikes, basic takedowns, basic submissions, everything basic..... I wait and see where they end up, and take it from there. With the UFC out there now, that is becomming more what people think Martial arts is all about. Especially all the young people., So I guess I like to show them what they think they want to see, meanwhile introducing them to other arts that I want them to see, and hope that 1 or 2 of them catches the bug that we all have, and crave real knowledge, as oppossed to just the striking and grappling they see in the UFC. Sifu shawn

Baguazhang If you take a good look at the 3rd (ish) movement of Kempo I it was obviously meant to be changed! Unless you want your leg broken. I better have a good look at that movement. I dont want my leg broken. :D sifu shawn

Pak Sao I think egos were hurt when the truth about Olaf started to come out. When some TKF practioners started to look elsewhere and started to learn a chinese form realized the difference between Olaf's kenpo (claiming kung fu) and a true kung fu style they felt cheated and could be why one would no longer want to train Moh. What we have to do, at the very least, is say that IMHO that one can take from TKF the foundations of martial arts. Another way to look at it, if the Chinese martial arts were to remain closed doors all we would all think that TKF is a true chinese martial art taken from a temple a in China. Maybe we owe O.E. Simon something for creating a style and a self delusional title, as maybe this expediated the Chinese community to opening their doors to non Chinese. Once again I am not challenging the fact that Simon could woop some a$$, although I wish he would have been honest with himself first and then everyone else. Not meaning to open any wounds which have maybe not fully healed. But this has nothing to do with the art of Moo Kempo. Everytime I train with a different teacher they have a different outlook. I have recently had the pleasure of training in the art of togakure ryu ninjitsu, in their black belt only classes. It is completely different from my current way of thinking... does that mean my last 20+ years of training various arts ( one of which is Moo kempo) was a waste. Is this now a true art....and a true kung fu style they felt cheated I love training with other artists because I like the differences in thought, in application. Its refreshing. Just because I learn something totally different does not mean the rest of what I have learned through the years was wrong. Thats crazy. If all the arts were the same there would only be one art. how boring would that be...... You find training other arts refreshing and different. That is a good thing.. why would Simon be ran down for that. I think egos were hurt when the truth about Olaf started to come out. Yes I dont doubt egos were hurt. Egos are generally characeristic of people with little self confidence or very little training. Or lacking experience in some capacity. Unfortunatley those with less experience, listen to those with little experience, and it makes for a group of people who really have no idea what they are talking about. sifu shawn

Baguazhang "do it right or I'll break your leg." That should attract some students eh? Thats awesome. Enrollment should skyrocket. :lol: Way to funny... sifu shawn