Why Train Moh Kempo?

Why Train Moh Kempo?
Why train Moh Kempo? Why continue training the style that Olaf Simon put together? I will admit for the sake of integrity, TKF has a little more going on than your average Tae Kwon Do (shudder) dojo, and probably a few shoddily run other ones (anyone remember the ninja craze of the '80's?) As a student training there you are assaulted with a cornucopia of lies throughout your training. His background is completely fabricated and an insult to the intelligence of the common man. Thank God for the information age. Why do you want to train this "style" that's been put together by a con man? He plainly lied about his background. Why do we believe that he was competent enought to create a style ? He was 30 something when he started training. His training was not formal. There was no one to guide him. ( We do have books and videos to teach us today, but any serious martial artist will tell you to use these tools as an adjunct to training, not your basis). We CANNOT compare Simon To the Gracies, Ushiba's, Oyama's and Parkers That developed their own styles. Each and everyone of these artist's had an extensive background prior to branching out. Way more than looking @ a couple of books and magazines. All his claims go unsubstantiated. He did break ice once, but I think a similar feet wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility today. Have you seen a modern Breaking competition? I would bet O.E. would have trouble keeping up. With the advent of Forums such as this we have been allowed a wide perspective spanning O.E.'s whole career. We have been able to ascertain the level of B.S. He and his wife propogate. Virtually all of the ex-instructors left w/ a slimy feeling. I know that when I trained I thought part of it was the heritage and nobility. I didn't want to train just to fight. I wanted to be part of this Martial Art world. The reality is that you get to hang your head in shame realizing that the rest of the MA community doesn't really recognize it as legit. With the introduction of the Discovery Document, we realize what a megalomaniac this a-hole is. All the evidence points to Simon as a con-man extrodinaire. So why not start fresh? We all got a little healthier w/ the vigorous calisthenics. We know what we learned is a patchwork of stuff. Why not further research the aspects that you like about Moh Kempo (or whatever) and try to figure out where O.E. ripped it off from, then learn that style? It has to be better thought out than O.E.'s version. And doesn't staying there or sticking w/ that style in some way support this charlatan? Why do we want to perpetuate his lies? Why do we want to be part of a heritage that has cannabalized and demonized our most faithful? (basically for the sake of a dollar?) There, I said it. J.K.

Let me do some Kungrobics and read my Neo Chan Bible before I get back to you on that one, OK? :twisted:

Hello TKFBS, I respect your rant about Falo Nomis, I also remember his little poem at the beginning of the “Fist”. And I remember what it meant. (You all don’t mind if I paraphrase a bit here ;-). Having seen fear and destruction, Having felt pain and sorrow, I was well prepared by my master, If there is evil, hate and distrust, Then I shall SELL, SELL, SELL! ’cause it’s all about the money! That felt good, even if it was a cheap shot! In all seriousness, you have asked a legitimate question. “Why train in Moh Kempo?” I don’t speak for others but I’ll tell you why I train. When I was younger, I liked to bang, plain and simple. I wasn’t the best or even the toughest, so I needed an edge over others. I did try various forms of JMA and CMA. And then I saw B. Leishman teaching M. Berezan and reverse roundhouse. I tried the intro course and I was hooked (for awhile). The Moh that I saw had a power and speed I found exciting. It had techniques and tactics that worked. And I had an irresistible urge to learn it. Was there a terrible price to pay for this? For me there was. Did I leave with a slimy feeling? Yep. Yet, I found other teachers of Moh Kempo who were not affiliated with Olaf. Over the years, I put a lot of myself into this Moh Kempo. I am simply unwilling to give it up because of the business model Olaf pursued. I have made it mine! I have a lot to feel embarrassed about when it comes to business. But I didn’t give a tinkers damn what other martial artists thought of my art, way back when. And I still don’t, although I do enjoy a good discussion.

MrE2Me2, I hadn't given much thought to B. Leishman for many years now. When I first joined Energy Lake, well first I was badly out of shape, I actually had to sit down half way through my first class! When I was tested for yellow, the most exhausting test I ever had, I left that night with a sense of accomplishment! 6 students were tested that night, 3 failed, one guy actually passed out! For orange, B. Leishman tested me, at that time he was Master and a 6th degree at that, or so he said. In the test B. Leisman demonstrated a couple of throws on me, he had amazing strength! Every time he threw me he placed me on the ground with such gentleness, and I weigh 220! The sparring started in orange to green, it was based at first on stepping. You had to be able to avoid attacks, using only stepping, from a 1-step through to a 10-step, 10 times for each sequence. I f you screwed up you had to start at the beginning of what sequence you were on, it could be a long test! The blue test had the same format, except now you were concerned with striking while advancing on your opponent, brown was concerned with blocking while advancing or retreating. In the end Energy Lake suffered the same fate as tkf, a kind of cult like atmosphere, some kind of power struggles among the instuctors and a watering down of training. When I left E.L. I felt very disillusioned about martial arts, it was about 2 years before I joined tkf and back on the merry-go-round! That's why I have decided to junk all that kempo stuff and concentrate on taiji. I have many fond memories of tkf, E.L. as well but I have just as many bad feelings about both organizations! I know in London Ontario I could learn from one of Ed Parker's students but that was just too far away, though I have always been curious about the similarities in the systems! Maybe when I have a firm foundation in taijiquan I'll check it out!

Re: Why Train Moh Kempo?
Why train Moh Kempo? Why continue training the style that Olaf Simon put together? For me I continue to train there because I enjoy it. I like the people, instructors and students included. The quality of training is great, but I would not expect anyone who has not stepped foot into the studios in the past year to understand. The changes made were long overdue and have made all the difference in the world. As a student training there you are assaulted with a cornucopia of lies throughout your training. His background is completely fabricated and an insult to the intelligence of the common man. There are a few unanswered questions but that does not mean it's all made up. Why do you want to train this "style" that's been put together by a con man? He plainly lied about his background. Why do we believe that he was competent enought to create a style ? He was 30 something when he started training. Not sure what your source is but I don't remember reading anywhere that he started training at 30. Even the much vaunted transcript says he started training as a child. His training was not formal. There was no one to guide him. ( We do have books and videos to teach us today, but any serious martial artist will tell you to use these tools as an adjunct to training, not your basis). GMS trained with a lot of people who today are considered legends. I find it hard to believe this was all informal. Granted there is no hard proof that I have of where and how he trained but that means there is no proof one way or the other. One thing is certain GMS is/was a formitable fighter and he didn't get that way reading books or just hanging out in other peoples studios. We CANNOT compare Simon To the Gracies, Ushiba's, Oyama's and Parkers That developed their own styles. Each and everyone of these artist's had an extensive background prior to branching out. Way more than looking @ a couple of books and magazines. Why not? Granted there are very differnt systems they created. But there are many people that believe the system is very sound. You seem to believe all of GMS knowledge came from books and magazines. Could you please enlighten me as to which books or magazines existed then that would have provided the information required to create a system, and maybe have a pullout section on doing a 1270 lb icebreak. All his claims go unsubstantiated. He did break ice once, but I think a similar feet wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility today. Have you seen a modern Breaking competition? I would bet O.E. would have trouble keeping up. I have yet to hear of someone duplicating that break with no spacers. If you know of one I'd be interested to see it. With the advent of Forums such as this we have been allowed a wide perspective spanning O.E.'s whole career. We have been able to ascertain the level of B.S. He and his wife propogate. The internet like all mass media is full of both information and misinformation. It's still really only a tool and you have to temper what you read on the internet with what you know and what you learn from other sources. I know that when I trained I thought part of it was the heritage and nobility. I didn't want to train just to fight. I wanted to be part of this Martial Art world. The reality is that you get to hang your head in shame realizing that the rest of the MA community doesn't really recognize it as legit. Not sure your source is or how long you've been able to speak on behalf of the "rest of the MA community". Just reading the posts here on this forum there are more than a few that feel the system is not a joke as you do. With the introduction of the Discovery Document, we realize what a megalomaniac this a-hole is. All the evidence points to Simon as a con-man extrodinaire. I have read the discovery document a few times over and I can't say I draw the same conclusions. If you accept the fact that it was administered under oath the document seems to prove GMS claims as much as it disproves them. So why not start fresh? We all got a little healthier w/ the vigorous calisthenics. We know what we learned is a patchwork of stuff. To each their own. If you find a system that suits you better you may have to make drastic changes akin to starting over. If however you found something in Moh Kempo that you like why not stick with it? If you like your instructor and you like the system and you feel the cost is reasonable and you feel you are advancing why not stick with it? I understand the reasons many of the posters here left TKF and I don't begrudge them. Most of them left because of the business practices at the time they were there. I agree it was a bad environment. Had it not changed I suspect I would have left also. But it did change. Your opinion of GMS is based on what TKF was like when you trained there, 15 years ago when you left if I'm not mistaken. You have to accept that not everyones experience especially those training there now are not the same as yours. You really enjoy where you train now that's a good thing no one shoud train somewhere if they are unhappy doing so. And certainly you should never let anyone tell you where you should be happy, decide that for yourself.

Hello Cam, You posted about B. Leishman, his confidence, passion and strength. (Pause for a moment while I remember those thrilling days of yellow belt :-D He was the first of my teachers of Moh. He was a true believer when I met him. I once sparred against him with a live blade. I had an open 4 inch lock blade against his empty hands. I got close only when he wanted me to. I remember once holding his legs while he did sit-ups with a 50 lb. plate behind his head. At his insistence, I also remember hitting him in the torso full power and speed. Afterwards, he smiled and said,” Not bad!” What happened was too bad. Nor does that excuse his actions, either.

Wow, Current Student. DEEP into the Temple B.S. are ya? "For me I continue to train there because I enjoy it. I like the people, instructors and students included. The quality of training is great, but I would not expect anyone who has not stepped foot into the studios in the past year to understand. The changes made were long overdue and have made all the difference in the world." So what has changed? The style? You still don't do tournaments or crosstrain? How could anything have evolved if you haven't tested it? I think you believe all the inbred hype. "There are a few unanswered questions but that does not mean it's all made up." What, are you kidding me? every claim the guy has made is an unanswered question! "Not sure what your source is but I don't remember reading anywhere that he started training at 30. Even the much vaunted transcript says he started training as a child." Try Marg Hilbig's biography. And you really consider his "playing" with the gardener as actual training? He admitted in that document it wasn't anything more than play. Damn, Current Student, you are pretty skilled in the way you bend phrases. You can certainly tell you are a TKF product. But there is more... "GMS trained with a lot of people who today are considered legends. I find it hard to believe this was all informal. Granted there is no hard proof that I have of where and how he trained but that means there is no proof one way or the other. One thing is certain GMS is/was a formitable fighter and he didn't get that way reading books or just hanging out in other peoples studios." Well, I bet few of these "legends" don't remember O.E. and those that do aren't terribly impressed. In the Parker Kenpo world he is a virtual unknown. As well, you even claim to not know for certain where he got his training. So YOU DON"T know do you? If O.E. was such a formidable fighter, who did he fight? There are no records. He was a ref @ the Internationals, so was I. No big deal. He didn't compete there or do anything spectacular or we would have heard about it by now. Let's not throw unsubstantiated claims out there huh? "Why not? Granted there are very differnt systems they created. But there are many people that believe the system is very sound. You seem to believe all of GMS knowledge came from books and magazines. Could you please enlighten me as to which books or magazines existed then that would have provided the information required to create a system, and maybe have a pullout section on doing a 1270 lb icebreak." Okay, re-read what I wrote. Man do you love to take stuff out of context. YOU CANNOT compare O.E. to these guys. ALL of their backgrounds can be substantiated, NOT his. He Did NOT have similar training or background in any way. I am convinced the Ice Break is some kind of parlor trick, and I'm getting a bug in my ass to research that some more. As for the rest of your reply, I don't have time. maybe later. It sure gets exhausting talking sense to the TKF clan J.K.

AND.. Because you asked, Check out Ed Parker's Law of the Fist, and Secrets of Shaolin Temple Boxing. It is common knowledge he plagiarized these tombs. Have a nice day J.K.

Wow, Current Student. DEEP into the Temple B.S. are ya? So what has changed? The style? You still don't do tournaments or crosstrain? How could anything have evolved if you haven't tested it? I think you believe all the inbred hype. The style is the same but training has improved. The instructors have a real understanding of what they teach. They have real world experience and an extensive background. No we don't do tournaments yet. And if by crosstrain you mean MMA no we don't do that either. If you feel that in order to be legit training you need to be MMA and fight in tourneys then you are intitled to your opinion of course. Just keep in mind that there are many who do not agree with you, and many systems that do not adhere to your views as well. Try Marg Hilbig's biography. And you really consider his "playing" with the gardener as actual training? He admitted in that document it wasn't anything more than play. Damn, Current Student, you are pretty skilled in the way you bend phrases. You can certainly tell you are a TKF product. But there is more... I read the same transcript. He said to "him" it was like playing. THe only way to train a child is to make a game out of it. You must not have kids. But you are taking it out of context, he did call it he clearly said he was taught by him. I have to be honest I have not Ms. Hilbig's Bio. I will make an effort to procure a copy and give it a read. I know Ms. Hilbig was pretty angry with GMS, I doubt she wrote about that in her book however. Well, I bet few of these "legends" don't remember O.E. and those that do aren't terribly impressed. In the Parker Kenpo world he is a virtual unknown. As well, you even claim to not know for certain where he got his training. So YOU DON"T know do you? If O.E. was such a formidable fighter, who did he fight? There are no records. He was a ref @ the Internationals, so was I. No big deal. He didn't compete there or do anything spectacular or we would have heard about it by now. Let's not throw unsubstantiated claims out there huh? I'm not surprised it's not very unusual for people outside of a particular system to be forgotten or to not be kept track of. The people who were around then are mostly passed away, I would not expect them to have documentation about GMS since he wasn't part of their legacy/lineage etc. What kind of records do you think exist from your training at TKF? Can you prove you trained there? I could talk to a lot of people that don't have any idea who you are. Now imagine how tough it would be going back 30 - 40 years in an age w/o electronic record keeping. Where he got his training? I go with the information I have. He started with Fu Yen as a young boy, fought in WWII, trained in some Japanese H2H (I assume after the war) came to Canada, continued to expand as he trained with people here and in US. No it's not conventional, and I know a lot of people want to crucify him because he didn't have a convetional background. No I don't have documentation that GMS competed. He does mention entering a masters tournament in your much vaunted transcript. Grasshopper has managed to scrounge up some old tourney programs that show GMS involvement but your right there is nothing that really shows him fighting in tournaments or if he did how successful he was. Sadly there isn't much documentation around at all for that time at all. Okay, re-read what I wrote. Man do you love to take stuff out of context. YOU CANNOT compare O.E. to these guys. ALL of their backgrounds can be substantiated, NOT his. He Did NOT have similar training or background in any way. I am convinced the Ice Break is some kind of parlor trick, and I'm getting a bug in my donkey to research that some more. I'm not sure how I took that out of context, but forgive me if I misquoted or misrepresented you. And I agree Simon did not have a conventional background or training. He was only able to train with Fu Yen for a few years, and yes they did make a game out of it. What better way is there to teach children? Then of course he had WWII in the middle of his life. You beleive no one should have the right to teach unless they have a completely documented lineage that can be proven legally in court, is that right? You are completely entitled to your opinion of course. As for the rest of your reply, I don't have time. maybe later. It sure gets exhausting talking sense to the TKF clan J.K. Until then i suppose. Be well.

AND.. Because you asked, Check out Ed Parker's Law of the Fist, and Secrets of Shaolin Temple Boxing. It is common knowledge he plagiarized these tombs. Have a nice day J.K. I have. Can you please point out which passages are plagerized?

"They have real world experience and an extensive background. No we don't do tournaments yet. And if by crosstrain you mean MMA no we don't do that either. If you feel that in order to be legit training you need to be MMA and fight in tourneys then you are intitled to your opinion of course." Oh yeah everybody has real world experience.? That's pretty vague term. Extensive background? In what? In Temple Kung Fu? I would say limited background . Yeah, I push the tournament angle a lot. But that is not what I meant by cross-training. Have you ever invited another studio over to spar? Don't tell me I know the answer. Have you ever been over to another studio to spar? Again don't tell me, I know the answer. So how do you know these techniques/skill will work against someone else who has trained? You Don't. I would endorse exposure to tournaments, not for everyone to compete, But instead to get a gander at what other styles are doing. If you live a solitary existence inside the white walls, how do you know what's outside? "He said to "him" it was like playing. THe only way to train a child is to make a game out of it. You must not have kids. But you are taking it out of context, he did call it he clearly said he was taught by him." Current Student, you Bone head, Did anyone ever rundown the meaning of ASSUME w/you? I have 3 kids. I also taught a kids class for three years . I really really really really really really doubt a child could retain enough knowledge to construct a martial art out of. Even the exceptional ones. Do you really buy into that? "You beleive no one should have the right to teach unless they have a completely documented lineage that can be proven legally in court, is that right? You are completely entitled to your opinion of course." Yep. At least linked to the training in credible way. Quality control ya know. I have high standards. Too bad you don't. If you want to send over a copy of Simon's Law of the Fist, I will be happy to proof read it alongside the Parker version. And would be delighted to share all the discrepancies w/you. If you're willing to part w/ a beloved PHS bible, I will gladly proofread it against Secrets of Shaolin Temple Boxing. It has been years since I read Simon's Law of the Fist. But I can't wait now. BTW if you can could you send "To Hell with Canada" too? That book itself is enough to make you want to leave. But here you are plugging away for the honor and glory of Olaf hisself. Remember that is the guy you are defending here "Current Student" Just based on the conviction of your posts, I won't be surprised to find you posting on my side of the fence @ some point in time. Stay healthy. J.K.

TKFBS - I have been asking myself the same question: WHY would anyone choose to train a style that is an uninformed patch-work of techniques put together at the whim of a deluded megalomaniac? I can see how if you've sunk a large investment of time and money into TKF then you might be inclined to want to believe it was worth more than it was. Finding a school that you trust, feeling like a legitimate part of the MA community, having pride and confidence in your teacher --- these are the rewards of emptying your cup.

From Drunken Monkey "Finding a school that you trust, feeling like a legitimate part of the MA community, having pride and confidence in your teacher --- these are the rewards of emptying your cup" I could not have said it better. J.K.

The reason why anyone would train Moh Kempo is routed in basic psychology. If you spend lots of money on a product (even a really bad product, i.e. TKF) you will tend to think of that product in higher regards. Simon uses this little tid bit of info in his marketing campaign and exploits his students. That is why people take Moh. But, there are also a few people who actually think this system works, LOL! Those are the ones we should really feel sorry about.

Oh yeah everybody has real world experience.? That's pretty vague term. Extensive background? In what? In Temple Kung Fu? I would say limited background . Well you'd be guessing and you'd be wrong. Real-world experience would be having to apply what you know in the real-world. That would be ther street. Both the Chief in Calgary and the Chief in Edmonton have had to defend themselves using what they have been taught. Yes against trained attackers sometimes multiples. I have had to do the same myself, have you? I'm thinking the answer is no. Yeah, I push the tournament angle a lot. But that is not what I meant by cross-training. Have you ever invited another studio over to spar? Don't tell me I know the answer. Have you ever been over to another studio to spar? Again don't tell me, I know the answer. So how do you know these techniques/skill will work against someone else who has trained? You Don't. See my response above. I do. I would endorse exposure to tournaments, not for everyone to compete, But instead to get a gander at what other styles are doing. If you live a solitary existence inside the white walls, how do you know what's outside? Actually if we wish to go to tournaments to "gander" as you call it we are encouraged to do so for exaclty the reasons you state. Current Student, you Bone head, Did anyone ever rundown the meaning of ASSUME w/you? I have 3 kids. I also taught a kids class for three years . I really really really really really really doubt a child could retain enough knowledge to construct a martial art out of. Even the exceptional ones. Do you really buy into that? Do you normally resort to name-calling when someone disagrees with you? To many it's an indication that you don't feel you are arguing from solid ground. You must not have kids. They learn fast and I mean very fast and if they are taught in a way that apeals to them (like playing) they don't forget. A kid can learn a ton in 6 years. I still remember the lessons my mother taught me when I was very young, like the one about name calling. Yep. At least linked to the training in credible way. Quality control ya know. I have high standards. Too bad you don't. I guess the insults help you feel you are making your point better. You'd be surprised I think how many lineages would fall apart in court. Even very legit ones are difficult to prove beyond doubt. If you want to send over a copy of Simon's Law of the Fist, I will be happy to proof read it alongside the Parker version. And would be delighted to share all the discrepancies w/you. If you're willing to part w/ a beloved PHS bible, I will gladly proofread it against Secrets of Shaolin Temple Boxing. It has been years since I read Simon's Law of the Fist. But I can't wait now. So you made that statement about GMS plagerising GM Parker without having compared the two books! I wonder what insult you'd hurl at me if I came up with an arguement like this? BTW if you can could you send "To Hell with Canada" too? That book itself is enough to make you want to leave. But here you are plugging away for the honor and glory of Olaf hisself. Remember that is the guy you are defending here "Current Student" I have it infact. Still here. Just based on the conviction of your posts, I won't be surprised to find you posting on my side of the fence @ some point in time. Stay healthy. J.K. Doesn't take much conviction. If you can come up with something solid I'll give you credit. But you can't sway me with your opinions. I think you over estimate the power of your arguements. I understand you probably trained at TKF for about 5 or 6 years but you also probably haven't set foot in over 10.

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