When untrained friends and family know you train
...you sometimes find the large cousin or grizzly like co-worker who know you teach kung fu, but can't believe you could beat them in a fight because they are just "so darn tough." Their knowledge consists of Body Part: Fist, connecting to target: "Face." With not much true understanding of fighting. They may have clubbed it out many times in a caveman bout of reaching roundhouse punches that at best could break a jaw, but in 99% of cases could only blacken an eye or bloody a nose leaving two uninjured brutes standing there and maiming one another. (Kimbo anyone?) They are now proficient in "trying out that thing I saw on WWE/UFC." What do you do when dealing with such people? Any stories?

Hello North, A good topic! Kinda like the guys who used to say they were black belts. You posted, “Anyone have some stories about these types?” Actually, I have some (mostly “youtube” and the news).. The first is one I saw on the news. This U.F.C. fan (with no training) come home and interrupts a burglar. When the burglar makes a break for it, the fan grabs him in a rear naked choke. Now everything worked out all right and the guy was merely arrested. But what if the fan had squeezed too hard? Or what if the burglar had a knife? I shudder to think of what would have happened if there had been an accomplice. As well, there was the security guard who squeezed the drunk too hard. The drunk quit breathing and he died. And then there is this idiot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igr1fBvH6TI As well as this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXlnY_Wrj9M This particular choke has been banned for police use. I’m all for self defense. But I’m of the school of thought that says amateur night is not okay. It has to be learned properly and practiced regularly. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

One gentleman who will remain nameless at the place I work didn't want to accept this fact. I advertise my school at this workplace with a flyer on the wall so it is no secret that I teach. There is also a rather large bodybuilder from a scrappy town out in Nova Scotia who doesn't like the fact that someone 185 pounds is viewed by the people there as being the stronger. I have had this guy come up behind me and try to grab me in sleeper holds, suddenly charge me and want to spar, (though in hi mind I think the word is "playfight.") I hurt him subtly, or scare him with a well controlled groin tap front kick etc. He slowly has gotten the message that big and strong doesn't mean that much. As time passes he is slowly forgetting and starting to do the sparring thing again. Like ussual it will result in "You play to rough, i'm staying away from you." Which I only wish would stay in effect.

Hello North, I hope your line of reason works on this guy. I do know of a couple of other times when it has worked. As well as a couple of times when it has not. One involved another master of Moh who had a large student. This student trained for about five years. One day he starts beating a beginner. When the master stepped out on the floor, he had to hurt the man to stop him. At this point, he banned the guy from training in his studio. In another case, the malefactor attacked his teacher’s friend. It was a disagreement over music. The big man was very big indeed. He got taken down by a guy half his size. This also resulted in the ending of this students training. In still another case, the teacher had a teenager start training for confidence. Once the guy’s confidence grew, he started carrying weapons and sassing his father. The end was the same; a suspension of training. When I was teaching professionally, I had several encounters with so called tough guys. Usually talk was all that was needed. They seemed to think that being a tough fighter was all there was to training (or life). Inevitably, the explanation that I gave went very similar to the one you gave. All that I added was that I had no reason to fight. If I was going to fight, they would have to perform a criminal act of assault. I further added that when I was done defending myself, I’d charge them and then I’d sue them. They’d simply never be rid of the trouble I’d cause. This combination of reason and ruthlessness worked. I have heard of similar tales going back over the years. So maybe it’s a rite of passage that some guys have to go through. A challenging of authority on a physical level is what some guys need, each generation. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

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Hello North, You posted, “If YOU are not prepared to open a school like that then why on eath would you want to start a fight with someone who IS willing?" That is really to the point! If you don’t mind, I’m gonna borrow that one :-D You also posted, “I am not certain the discipline that is gained is one that allowes people to control their own behavior.” Sometimes that is definitely the problem, all right. However, I tend to think that people like that are in any line of work. For instance: I know a former medical doctor who is also a “dangerous offender”. He is a convicted murderer and is serving “an indeterminate sentence”. I mean, the guy is a Doctor for crying out loud! There is also the owner of a new car lot who used to spend his time beating up bouncers. I’ve heard of more than one big name actor who likes to mix it up on the street. You commented on another thread about releasing an angry soul. Perhaps it is one of the costs of being an instructor that we have to keep an eye out for this sort of thing. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

To all, There were many things that inspired me to train in the martial arts. One of the most important was that size wasn’t the end all and be all. I was really heartened by the concept that a little person could fight. It was really important to me that a fight could be over with a punch or two. It didn’t have to go for an hour or more as some boxing matches are want to do. Nor did it have to be about how much punishment one could endure. It could all be over in an instant. I still am inspired by that concept. I still train continuous sparring but the ideal of one encounter inspires me. I see this on occasion in the octagon. And I am impressed by it. It lets me know that when an expert meets a non expert, it will end quickly. Regards, MrE2Me2

"It lets me know that when an expert meets a non expert, it will end quickly" Nicely put. I think alot of people believe that non-experts stand far greater a chance than they actually do. When new students start training it becomes very evident to their teacher how horrible at fighting a non-expert is. Most youtube fights etc result in neither fighter taking substantial damage. I have yet to see a knee get stomped and a handful of fingers broken as someone is sumarily knocked out with an elbow or whatnot. It seems to me that truly skilled kung fu fighters all avoid conflict as much as possible. That is the only reason we do not have videos of such things. There are only 1 or 2 videos I have come across of some clown representing kung fu in a MMA fight, but those who truly understand kung fu don't understand why you would subject yourself to UFC or whatnot. my 2 cents anyhow..

Hello North, You posted, “Most youtube fights etc result in neither fighter taking substantial damage. I have yet to see a knee get stomped and a handful of fingers broken as someone is sumarily knocked out with an elbow or whatnot.” Agreed, mostly M.M.A. is a sport in which two tough young guys beat the tar out of each other. Usually these guys will display great camaraderie before, during and after a match. It’s my understanding that killing, maiming and debilitating attacks are actively discouraged. I, for one, don’t want to see such things and I have learned to view M.M.A. for what it is: a martial sport with some rules, more egos and a lot more money. You posted, “It seems to me that truly skilled kung fu fighters all avoid conflict as much as possible. That is the only reason we do not have videos of such things.” That is true. Although I did witness a match in which Kajukenbo expert Chuck Liddell punched the other guy so hard he verbally tapped out right then (and this guy was no slouch either). You posted, “…those who truly understand kung fu don't understand why you would subject yourself to UFC or whatnot.” I gather the participants regard it as fun. Then there is the power, money and prestige. And finally, as Dana White has been known to say, “Boxing is the sort our fathers watch, while M.M.A. is the sport that we watch.” Perhaps that sums it up best. Also, keep in mind that the concept of bare knuckles fighting is not new to North America. I once saw a biography on Bill Miner the so-called “Grey Fox”. He was a criminal in B.C. about 100 years ago. In one part of this biography, it was stated that there were many men’s clubs in the early west. They were devoted towards bare knuckle fighting. Today’s U.F.C seems to be merely a continuation of this. That is why I tend to regard this sport as merely one small part of total kung fu training. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Indeed. One interesting thing about the UFC despite its shortcomings is that I believe it has helped clean up the training people recieve from traditional schools now. The teachers (such as myself) who practice/teach traditional arts are now disecting our arts knowledge differently and seeing new applications in the techniques based on our exposure to MMA. As a quick example, most people pre-UFC would have viewed knife hand #7 as a technique you would use in a standing scenario. There was very little practice of it from a grappling base. Now it is a technique that can be combined with a guard position scenario to knock out an aggressor who manages to take you to the ground and assume a mount position. So kung fu students are practicing being taken to the ground and yet once they get there to effectively strike and feel comfortable doing so. prior to the UFC days I would bet good money a huge % more kung fu students would panic if taken to the ground, and have to improvise to escape it. improvising is never as good as using something that is tested and effective. The UFC has forced alot of people to re-evaluate their style and how it is used. This is a good thing as it can only make us more realistic fighters. the real arguement that pops up is when people claim MMA fighting is "superior" to traditional training. But I am subjective on the subject, who knows, perhaps I am wrong. I hate the word "superior," I know that much.

Hello North, You posted, “…I believe it has helped clean up the training people recieve from traditional schools now.” I agree to a degree, although… I used to get the same sort of arguments about full contact back in the ‘80’s. There was nothing like a little, “try me now and see” to quell the doubters. You posted, “the real arguement that pops up is when people claim MMA fighting is "superior" to traditional training.” You got that right and it is an age old story. But you don’t hear this from the champs. I guess they are too busy getting ready for the next one. And I find it interesting that they have to fight championship bouts often. I think it is fair to say that M.M.A. is for the young. Older and seasoned just doesn’t make it. The rules are against them. On the other hand, kung fu is for all ages. Regards, MrE2Me2

My biggest concern these days is the small groups of friends who have drinking, drug and other problems, yet they are hanging out together and playing around with jujitsu and such that they learn from watching UFC, K1 or Pride etc. I knew two guys long ago who were a friend of a friend. Every time I saw these guys they had a story to tell of some poor guy they picked at a bar and went and jumped 2 on 1. Of course one day they were all beat up and had a story of the guy they jumped who most likely was trained. THAT was the part I had been waiting for, I am only glad I managed to see them and hear their humble tale. But those guys were both small. There are much larger and more dangerous people out there. And some that carry a knife and will use it if they feel they are losing the fight.