RE
Just to clarify, Yen Hui and Vortexx, are you guy’s current students at TKF? Just curious as you 2 seem to be fairly strong supporters of Simon. My take on the situation of Simons "authenticity" is this: he's not what he claims to be. Why do I say this? Well, I study a very traditional style of kung fu now and my sifu is what I would describe (and he does as well) as "old school". I can trace his lineage back to the source of the style. Chinese culture is critical to the study of the style. If Simon was the "master" he says that he is then he would understand this. In "Law of the fist" he says the Chinese wouldn't teach non-Chinese people. This was true before but it is not the case now, however, during Simon's time it was. I really don't mean any disrespect to any of the people that study kung fu who are members of this forum when I make comments or share opinions about why the Moh Style is not authentic kung fu. I've watched the videos posted and I have studied Moh/ PHS for long enough to make an educated comparison to what I currently know to be "authentic" Chinese kung fu (I say Chinese because there now exists a western version of kung fu). What these videos suggest to me is that there is a MASSIVE amount of content and principles that are missing in what is being presented. Is it wrong? No, but it could be MILES better. I went through my TKF forms the other day to see if I could remember them and I could do all of them start to finish as they were was taught to me. Then I did them again, naturally using the new skills and principles that have been passed on to me by my sifu (for which I am sincerely grateful). It was really interesting for me personally because I would say 85% of the movements were removed. I was staggered by how much unnecessary movement and techniques there are in the TKF forms. Additionally, they COMPLETELY refuse to incorporate the core fundamentals of any evolved methods and principles of kung fu. I would never have understood this if I continued to study Moh/ PHS. I've met and trained with people who were active students at TKF and taught them these basics and then applied them to the techniques they were currently learning in their lessons (ya, I know, they betrayed the art by doing this, blah, blah, blah). It was a revelation to them and they often ended up quitting. So what the heck is the point of this post? The point is that you're wasting your time trying to justify any authenticity to Simon's claims. Any kung fu he learned was picked up when he was here in Canada . He didn't learn very much and the stuff he did learn was modified to suit his own view and application (a fairly arrogant/ ignorant thing to do). Nothing more, nothing less. I don't have a problem with that but his "history” and "connection" to an authentic Shaolin style and these titles have been manufactured by Simon to promote his business. Fu Yen is most likely an idea Simon came up with to lend some authenticity to his cause. If he was real then Simon would share this history with his students. This is the way of Chinese culture and it would have been drilled into Simons head when he was a student. To do otherwise is a slam against his teacher and, as such, the connection would never be mentioned. There is a good book called “The Sword Polishers Record". Link: http://www.amazon.com/Sword-Polisher-Record-Kung-Fu-Martial/dp/0804831386 Give it a read if you haven't seen it yet. Another good one is Tai Chi Classics. link: http://www.amazon.com/Tai-Chi-Classics-Shambhala/dp/1570627495/sr=1-1/qid=1158744994/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-2003363-3100744?ie=UTF8&s=books These books cover a lot of stuff that was never considered at the studios when I trained at TKF. Perhaps that has changed. The moral to the story? Simon is as much a master of propaganda as he is of Moh, a style that he created. Cheers! (without prejudice, as Grasshopper would say) :) Cam, your thought's? We seem to be on the same page as far training goes.

Well this is sensitive stuff, so I'll tread lightly :) All styles of MA have there own particular "shenfa", or body method. It's what makes Karate look like karate or Kali looking like Kali and not Tae Kwon Do! Shenfa, from what I understand, is what the body does in order to move itself. From how one steps, how the hips, waist, spine move. In many "kung fu" styles the 9 gates is I would say a primary consideration. The 9 gates being: Ankle, Knee, Hip, Wrist, Elbow, Shoulder, Waist, Spine and Neck. All these "gates" have to have a particular alignment, in stillness or motion. Many of the motions are made with a spiraling, circular motion or a folding type of motion. These are 2 methods of storing and releasing energy(jing), it is IMO, the characteristic that seperates it from Karate or Krabi Krabong or any other art. Not to say that there are not significant differences in kung fu either, Hung Gar is definately not Taijiquan which is not Long Fist. Though they may share some basic concepts, they will place different emphasis on their shenfa. Now on to the Moh forms! Quite simply, no torso motion! It is like the waist, back and shoulders are fused at times, much more like karate then most styles of kung fu! Not that I'm dumping on Karate, it's produced some highly skilled Masters, it's just not Kung fu!

Hello Yen Hui, You posted about Brian’s strategies. I sparred with him often and he was always overwhelming to me. I felt like I was being toyed with. I mean no disrespect here; he was just lots better than I. In Edmonton, we never got people challenging us. (Well, one loud mouth once but that was it.) Usually they’d walk in and take one look. Then they’d walk back out. When I had my studio in Surrey, we had a rule. If you are challenging me, sign the release waiver. I did not see anyone who wanted to do that. I had some guys come and shoot their mouth off. But none ever signed. About challenges in general: Although Wayne fought that challenge: It was an unusual event. I do remember reading about other masters. They would accept and fight only to be sued. I know of at least two who lost serious coin here. I think that Brian got lucky he wasn’t sued. Regards, MrE2Me2

Hello DaveS, First off, I’m not going to debate the authenticity of Olaf’s tales. But I am curious about one thing. You posted about recently doing your TKF forms with your new skills. And you were impressed with “85% of the movements” being removed. You also say that they “completely refuse to incorporate the core fundamentals…” When I first learned my Mo forms, I had lots of extra movement. Even today, while much improved, they still need work. I went through five teachers of Mo and decades of work on these forms. And I don’t regret it but I am still learning too (as are you). Isn’t it possible that we are not so far apart here? If you had access to a video camera or a digital camera, Then I would very much like to see you perform a Mo form. But I’d like to see you use these new ideas. Please understand that I mean no disrespect here. I’m simply trying to get a better handle on what you are saying. Regards, MrE2Me2

MrE2Me2 wrote: "First off, I’m not going to debate the authenticity of Olaf’s tales. " Agreed. It is what it is. "But I am curious about one thing. You posted about recently doing your TKF forms with your new skills. And you were impressed with “85% of the movements” being removed. You also say that they “completely refuse to incorporate the core fundamentals…” I wouldn't say "impressed". Proper use of concepts enable any form, regardless of the style, to be self-corrected. "When I first learned my Mo forms, I had lots of extra movement. Even today, while much improved, they still need work. I went through five teachers of Mo and decades of work on these forms. And I don’t regret it but I am still learning too (as are you). " I don't know any other way to put so I'll be blunt; useless movements. "Isn’t it possible that we are not so far apart here?" No "If you had access to a video camera or a digital camera, Then I would very much like to see you perform a Mo form. But I’d like to see you use these new ideas. Please understand that I mean no disrespect here. I’m simply trying to get a better handle on what you are saying." No disrespect taken. I admire anyone that dedicate themselves to the study of martial arts, especially those who aspire to create and develop their own style. Sorry, no access to a video camera. Posting a video would be irrelevant anyway because it wouldn't be the kenpo forms as you know them. Cam hit the nail on the head with his response. Posting a description of what to change or the differences, etc, is impossible. Even if I could post a video it would make no difference. You have to touch it it. The only way I could share it with you is in person. I could pass on the information but it would be up to you to find it. Kung fu is doing, not talking (my sifuy's word's). Hopefully we can get together and train some day. I have no doubt you have as much to share with me as I do with you. One thing I can guarantee; your entire style would change if we trained together. Thanks for the response. Much appreciated.

Useless motions! I offer an explanation that my teacher gave me. When a small child begins to write, how is this done? You introduce the child to a large crayon, as the child needs to use both hands to grasp it. You also give them a large piece of construction paper, (better then the walls)! The child will then proceed to make a huge mess of large lines and large looping circular type drawings. In time the child will progress to drawing sloppy yet recognizable faces. Later, as the child gets more skilled at controlling the crayon you may introduce a smaller crayon that the child may manipulate with one hand. At this time you will give the child a colouring book, this will introduce the concept of control, as the child attempts to colour the appropriate sections. All through this time you will be offering the child encouragement and congratulations! After a while the child will be ready for a pencil, and lined paper and the task of printing. This is a serious undertaking as the child must now learn not only to form letters but to also place them in the confines of the lines. After that the pen and writing, calligraphy would be considered the highest skill level in this particular discipline. Training in any MA follows this same basic formula, starting with the gross uncoordinated motions and developing them (internalizing) into small exacting motions. When I watched Mystery Man's vid on Star Blocking it was obvious that he has internalized the blocks from Moh style. He has elimanated the superfluous motions of a beginner and has achieved the "pencil stage", for want of a better term :D Now when DaveS says that he has elimanated many of the motions, I don't believe he is talking about the same thing that I have described. Rather, DaveS is seeing the Kempo forms through the eyes of a Kung Fu stylist, I imagine that he had to adapt some motions and outright change or elimanate motions to make them fit into his style of training. For myself, I see many motions that can be adapted, I see many more motions that would have to be completely changed, some would have to be elimanted as they are just too foreign to the body method that I am currently learning.

Hello Cam, I got to thinking about challenges early this morning. I wasn’t there; I was in Surrey and heard about it later. But when Laurie taught in the Vancouver studio, She had at least one match where the guy signed the waiver. She defeated him quickly and relatively easily. As I said, I wasn’t there, so it didn’t come to mind right off. Seriously, thank you for sharing about “body method”. You also mentioned about Mo forms having no torso motion. That is one of the things that drew me to this art. I guess I was lucky in my choice of Mo because I have extensive back trauma. Even with continuous therapy, torso motions are a definite no-no for me. Regards, MrE2Me2

Hello DaveS, I must admit, your answers to my questions have piqued my curiosity (again). You are not the first person to state the benefits of Tai Chi training. For example: I’m posting a link to a famous Karateka. Hirozaku Kanazawa is known for both Karate and TaiChi. http://www.fightingmaster.com/legends/kanazawa/index.htm Anyway, have a Great Day! Regards, MrE2Me2

Mystery Man, I can appreciate your choice of training Mo style, back pain can be most debilatating! In taiji, as most Internal arts the torso method is an important tool. It is a quite exact form of practise that requires a certain degree of rotation and bowing motions along the length of the spine, all the while keeping the spine upright and in alignment. The problem I see, for you anyways, is that while learning these motions you would probably move your back out of alignment, no doubt causing great discomfort for yourself! In my Training Tips postings I have rather briefly described some of the exercises used to develope Torso methods, the key being to loosen and lenghthen the spine. These exercise are meant to be done slowly, as to help identify what exactly you are doing. That is the prime reason why all forms of Taijiquan are performed slowly, not for the meditative effect but rather to get the body method correct. Later, when perfected the form may be done as fast as you like, as long as the body methods are adhered too. Otherwise you would be like a child with his crayons!

Hello Cam, I think you are right about torso exercises (even TaiChi ones). So I am in other regular therapies that help me. They are actually doing a lot of good. But it will take more time to heal up some. And I'll always have limited movement. Still, I'm grateful that I can move as well as I can. Regards, MrE2Me2

Glad to hear the therapy is helping! Ironically, it was practising taiji that gave me my worst strained back! I was out of commission for almost 3 weeks :shock: Strange, how trying to relax your back can sometimes hurt it!

rainmann: "if Jones was fairly succesful and Simon is such an upstanding guy, and the Simon's were there only for the best of interests of the studio... then why did Jones break his affiliation??" Maybe he didn't want to pay the license fees any longer. Maybe he wanted to get away from the damaged TKF reputation. "And Piercy stole a whole bunch of money from his studios... (Party line right?)" Wrong. Nobody said Piercey stole money. The studios were his, and he had every right to take it. "HOW IN THE HELL COULD HE STEAL FROM HIS OWN STUDIO!!!!!!!" My point exactly. And HOW IN THE HELL COULD HE BE KICKED OUT OF HIS OWN STUDIO!!!!!!! "It does sound good however if you are trying to villify Piercy, or anyone else for that matter." Who's trying to vilify who? I think the only person being vilified is Simon.

Why shouldn't Simon be vilified....he's a moron. Plain and simple. His art trult does suck.