Unanswered Questions
I think a lot of the animosity people have about TKF comes from the feeling that they deserve some straight answers and yet TKF is not forthcoming. These were posted on the other forum, and were ignored by the current TKF masters, so I've copied and pasted them here... Maybe if they're reading this forum, as Grasshopper stated, they could clear some things up: • Are we to understand that Simon is NOT actually the 23rd Dalai Seng Shi (as he claimed this title for himself), but IS the 23rd successor of the Tookien Temple? • Where is the Tookien temple, and what was the nature of Simon's connection to it? Did he train there? Any idea for how long? • Why does he say 'present' Dalai Seng Shi if there were no previous ones? • What is the connection to the White Horse Temple in Luoyang? (I've heard that this is where the oath comes from, but my research into this temple reveals a strong connection to Buddhism's roots, but no mention of Shaolin, kung fu, etc.) • Where specifically is/was the Tookien temple located? Who trained there? Lin Fie Hung? Li Kwan Yan? Fu Yen? • Who is Lin Fie Hung? What relationship if any did Simon have with this man? Where did he live? What style did he train? Did he know Fu Yen? • Who is Li Kwan Yan? What relationship if any did Simon have with this man? Where did he live? What style did he train? Did he know Fu Yen? • Why is there such a vast difference between what is generally accepted as 'Shaolin' and what TKF teaches? (Weapons, power generation, forms, kicks, stances, breathing, footwork - nothing at TKF resembles other Shaolin systems... ) • Why has Olaf not simply obtained a replacement copy of his so-called doctorate? • How does TKF reconcile the claim that Simon is the 'holder of the plates from the shaolin urn', when the existence of such an urn has proven to be a myth? • Why are there no records of Simon's winning in any tournaments? • Does Simon consider Margie Hilbig's account of their early training a lie? If so, why have they taken no legal action against her? • Who are the other 'silver sash grand masters' and where are they located? What styles do they teach? Any information would be appreciated.

Olaf Simon's past
I've never seen so much obsessing over one man so many years later. What is it about TKF that causes your obsession? Consider this: Even if his past is largely a total fabrication, and he learned kung fu out of a book and watching videos, he did have some skill as evidenced by the breaking ice demos. Most of the students of TKF knew his claims were questionable and took it all with a grain of salt. I could see the skill of his teachers, and it did trouble me that they came and went like a revolving door. Some very good instructors left TKF. Given the state of Karate/Kung Fu schools in Seattle at the time, I don't know that there really was a better Kung Fu school at the time. And I looked around before I joined.

*Let me preface my remarks by saying this post is about the past biz.* Hello DrunkenMonkey, I see that no one’s come to answer your questions. It has been just over a MONTH since they’ve been posted. Well, I hate to disappoint you but I’m not going to answer them either. Something else I’ve noticed. Gtberg’s has not answered them either. I have some questions too but first my preamble. I have in my possession, certain documents related to the past biz. In these documents, there is a reference to a “Doreen Urness” circa November 1972. Later this is changed to “Doreen Simon nee Urness”, circa August 1975. According to one document, “Doreen Urness” is the certified owner of 9 class “A” shares Of Simon Karate Studios (Vancouver) LTD. In August of 1975, “Doreen Simon nee Urness”, resigned. As president of Simon Karate Studios (Vancouver) LTD. (This was during the sale of the business to L. Wayne Thomas.) I read on another forum a claim alleging to have been made by a Troy Sparrow about a “Mrs. Simon” and being unable to modernize the business model. Here is my question. What part(s) did Doreen June Simon nee Urness have in the managing of TKF /SKS? Obviously there was something there but what, exactly? Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Interesting info on the share structure of the past... "Here is my question. What part(s) did Doreen June Simon nee Urness have in the managing of TKF /SKS? Obviously there was something there but what, exactly? " :roll: Hey MrE2ME2. D. June Simon is (was?), the right arm & right leg of the business aspects TKF. She led most or all supervisors meetings of the past and constantly told the owners/ masters what to do and how to do it during the 90's and early 2000's. New ownership says this is no longer the case but I can tell you for a fact that it used to be. This would include: How to do interviews, how to do "finances", how long belt tests should be, how many punches & push-ups to do in group classes. I don't know how involved she was in setting final prices for training but she certainly gave her $.02 on this subject. She was involved in almost everything in one way or another. I don't really want to get into it but it was this "detached" management style coming from a HO that had not been inside an operating studio for more than 2 days at a time in the last decade or so that caused a lot of the problems. The system that worked so well for TKF in the 70's, 80's and even into the 90's had become antiquated, but they refused to accept it. Teaching MA with a "closed door" policy does not work. There is just too much competition... The lies propagated from HO didn't help either lol... :lol:

Hello Grasshopper, My response to your answers for my questions. WHOA NELLY!!! Are You Kidding Me? (A rhetorical question.) I shouldn’t be surprised. A story from a long, long time ago. I was working at Edmonton (for the short time I was there). I woman in her 20's or 30’s came in. She was dressed to the nines and acted like she owned the place. I guess she probably did. She walked right into the studio proper with her shoes on. No one ever did this. Yet she did it and right into Phillip McAndrews office too. When she came into the studio all action ceased and I mean all action. A little while later she strolled out. We could have been insects for all she the attention she paid to us. Then Phillip came out of his office and beat on the sandbag for awhile. Another story from merely a long time ago (Technically a rumor, as it were.) Our mutual associate told me how he left TKF. She apparently came into his office to give him his walking papers. Apparently, she was all set to give him a working over. But before she could do little more than begin her tirade, he interrupted her. He told her he owed her nothing and wasn’t about to take anything either. Then he left, with head held high. The picture I have always gotten is a fairly nasty one. In my opinion, I see a ruthless, well schooled business woman who had the ear of Olaf. You have confirmed for me that she simply got more powerful. Now I have a couple more questions. When did he adopt the title, his holiness the dali what-ever-it –is? Did she adopt the title of “Nanlao” at about that same time frame? Regards, MrE2Me2 As always Without prejudice E&OE

Where are all the answers to DrunkenMonkey's questions in his original post? The fact of the matter is that GM Simon had to make up these lies to try and uphold his crappy art. I also hardly think that just because he can break some ice blocks means that he has created an effective fighting art. I know people who can break all kinds of things with no martial arts training.

Where are all the answers to Grasshopper's questions in his original post? Not sure what you mean by that?

Hello TKF_PHS, You posted, “Where are all the answers to DrunkenMonkey's questions in his original post?” As I previously posted, it has been over a month and no one has answered these question. The topic of the thread was titled, “Unanswered Questions”, so I asked some of my own when DrunkenMokey’s were obviously not going to be answered. You posted,” The fact of the matter is that GM Simon had to make up these lies to try and uphold his crappy art.” Obviously I have not made myself clear. And I want you to understand me very clearly here. You have taken the time to post without profanity. And, in my opinion, you deserve to have some straight answers. I regard what he said about the past, as a part of the past business. I do not regard it as a part of the art of Moh. I am definitely not going to defend the business practices of past administrations. I am trying very hard to separate the past biz from the art of Moh, on this forum. You don’t know where Moh came from (I don’t know either). If Olaf did make up the art of Moh…so what? I believe the art stands on its own merits. Can you separated what he said from the fighting art of Moh? You posted,” I also hardly think that just because he can break some ice blocks means that he has created an effective fighting art. I know people who can break all kinds of things with no martial arts training.” I do believe that Moh and its serious practitioners can fight. There is plenty of evidence to support this. However, I am definitely not a breaker. I respect those that do but I just don’t care to. That being said, here is a link to the current “ice breaking” record holder. He’s part way down the page, http://www.worldrecordfederation.com/martial_arts.htm Regards, MrE2Me2

"That being said, here is a link to the current “ice breaking” record holder." Almost all the breaks you see on that page are done with spacers. Those who know anything about breaking will know that there is a huge difference. When you have spacers, all you need to do is break the top block or two, and the weight of them falling will do the rest of the work for you. So yes, people have definitely broken more than 1270 lb of ice, but no one (to my knowledge) except for GMS has been able to do it without spacers.

"D. June Simon is (was?), the right arm & right leg of the business aspects TKF." "I read on another forum a claim alleging to have been made by a Troy Sparrow about a “Mrs. Simon” and being unable to modernize the business model." If that was true, how come there was such a wide discrepancy between how business was done in Jones's studios and how it was done in Sparrow's or in Weber's? Why was Jones's studios so much more modernized? Why do we so rarely hear any complaints from students in the Seattle area? Why were Jones's studios prospering while Weber and Sparrow went bankrupt? I'm sure Mrs. Simon voiced her thoughts on how she thought things should be run, and she may have been very authoritative in doing so. But in the end it was still up to each owner/master to run his studios how he chose. (I'm obviously not speaking of the days when the Simons (co)owned the studios themselves.) Weber ran his studios outside of his license agreement, so he had it pulled from under him for good reasons (and it's very lucky for Alberta that it happened). Did he make any big changes to his studios after that? No, and most of them closed within 7 months. Sparrow and Jones were running things differently, and they didn't lose their license as Weber did. In fact, Sparrow and Jones ran the licensing company (TKI) and could have made the changes they wanted. And they had made many changes. Whatever Jones did in his studios obviously worked better than what Sparrow or Weber were (or were not) doing. Sparrow blaming his bankruptcy on Mrs. Simon doesn't add up and sounds more like an excuse to me.

Hello Vortexx, You have posted a really good bunch of questions here. You have also posted a bunch of responses and opinions too. And I’m glad of it but it does bring up something that I just can’t shake. First, 1. You asked about the Seattle area schools. On here, it seems to me that I read about a student from there who was satisfied with the instruction he received at TKF. It seems to me he had looked around and found none that suited his needs as well as TKF. When I find the post I’ll let you know. As an aside; Here is a link to Elizabeth Truit’s web account on the martial arts in Seattle, circa November of 1999. Under Kung fu there is even a mention of Temple. http://www.slate.com/default.aspx?id=55898 2. You posted, “I'm sure Mrs. Simon voiced her thoughts on how she thought things should be run, and she may have been very authoritative in doing so.” How authoritive was she and for how long, exactly? 3. You posted,” But in the end it was still up to each owner/master to run his studios how he chose.” Was it? Did she have any powers over these people? I’m not being rude or obnoxious here. I’m trying to more fully understand her role(s) in Moh and TKF/SKS. 4. You posted, “Sparrow blaming his bankruptcy on Mrs. Simon doesn't add up and sounds more like an excuse to me.” Why did Mr. Sparrrow blame “Mrs. Simon" and not Olaf? (I know that is not really a question you can answer but I’m hoping someone else can.) Now you said your post was mostly about TKF after the Simon’s sold their shares. None the less, I keep coming back to this in your post. The Thing about Your Post That I Cannot Shake Did no one make it (outside of TKF in Edmonton and Calgary)? Did Messer’s Sparrow, Weber and Jones etc receive such poor business practices from TKF that they all failed? I mean, if Mrs, Simon was so authoritive, when she was in charge, then why did all these guys fail when they went on their own? Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Hey MrE2ME2, I just re-read your earlier post and realized I missed several points: The picture I have always gotten is a fairly nasty one. In my opinion, I see a ruthless, well schooled business woman who had the ear of Olaf. You have confirmed for me that she simply got more powerful. Although I feel I cannot comment on this honestly as I was never there (obviously), when it was just June and Olaf talking business, but many, many people suspect exactly what you have said here. I question how much of the real problems TKF has had in the past Olaf ever really knew. June only told him what he needed to hear and ran the "business" side of the organization herself without much of his envolvemnet. Again that is hard to prove but highly suspected. Now I have a couple more questions. When did he adopt the title, his holiness the dali what-ever-it –is? Did she adopt the title of “Nanlao” at about that same time frame? This happened in the early 1980's and yes she got her new "title" at the same time as his. Dear Vortex, You said: If that was true, how come there was such a wide discrepancy between how business was done in Jones's studios and how it was done in Sparrow's or in Weber's? Why was Jones's studios so much more modernized? Why do we so rarely hear any complaints from students in the Seattle area? Why were Jones's studios prospering while Weber and Sparrow went bankrupt? For years Master Jones would rarely impliment any of Junes recommended changes while in Canada we did almost everything she said. Hence ALL the differences. This why Robert's studios remained unscathed. The art was the same, but the training model was quit different in many ways. They taught specialized group classes on different nights that I never heard of and Master Jones rarely talked about Simon being this "Uber" Martial Artist like they did in the Canadian studios. A lot of the BS stories that Simon would talk about Robert never repeated, but in Canada we all believed them and told them endlessly to the students. So when we found out most of it was lies the students in Seattle shrugged and said "I never heard that" while in Canda they all freaked out!! I could go on but you get my point. Jones was there when Shergold got the boot. You should have seen how he reacted when Piercey got the boot the exact same way. I was there, it wasn't pretty. Yes these other guys were all a part of the intervention but they were all duped by the Simon's. Though the other guys may have suspected something was wrong, Robert KNEW it. He just continued to keep his head down, make his payments to Temple Arts and said very little to his students about Simon 'cause he knew the truth. That is me connecting the dots and therefor is my opinion, however it IS an educated opinion.

I must say that you two, Vortex & MrE2ME2 have each been awarded an honourary badge of merrit for being the biggest spammers... er... I mean posters on this website. Please take that the right way. :lol: I may have to change the ranking system if you keep up this pace. keep fighting the good fight! Thanks for coming.

"I must say that you two, Vortex & MrE2ME2 have each been awarded an honourary badge of merrit for being the biggest spammers... er... I mean posters on this website." Thanks, grasshopper. And thanks again for creating this forum.

"How authoritive was and for how long, exactly?" I was never an owner of a TKF studio, so I don't know. I only suggested she may have been authoritative from grasshopper's account. "Did have any powers over these people?" Not in my opinion. As long as the owners stayed inside their licensing agreement, it was up to them whether they listened to her or not. "Did Messer’s Sparrow, Weber and Jones etc receive such poor business practices from TKF that they all failed?" No. Weber and Sparrow failed, but Jones was fairly successful when part of TKF (I'm not sure how he's doing now).