The secrecy
The way they treated everything like it had to be earned. I assumed at the time that there truly was someting unique and worth while to be learned if i just stayed the course and became PHS. I thought all schools had a system like this and didn't realize alot of great Kung Fu schools are very open with their knowledge. Some don't even use a tier based system to dole out the knowledge. That carrot on a stick approach is something I hated about TKF. Perhaps becoming used to the never ending search for more advanced knowledge helped me to continue to search everywhere for more and more Kung Fu secrets which has lead me to where I am today in terms of knowledge, but I do feel i could have spent the 7-8 years of training in better schools, or absorbed the info from that school in far less time.

Hello North, I hated the secrecy concept too. I finally realized that it was part of the business model. It was a way to attain money and respect (even fear). Now I trained in a time before PHS was taught. But the idea that one had to earn knowledge was prevalent then too. As a matter of fact, one of my teachers complained of the same thing. While I went a different route than you after I left, we have many things in common. I do not hold back knowledge and I do not use the carrot on a stick approach. I still detest both of those concepts and view them as small minded. I have seen and been involved with better concepts since I left SKS. The idea that a student will one day surpass me is reassuring now. It means what I have to share will indeed be shared. Also, the concept that my people stay because they want to is good! I don’t find it necessary to find ways to keep them coming back. I am pleased when they display growth. (This would be the opposite of the carrot on a stick concept, imo.) But I have also seen enough to know that holding back knowledge is common. There are many arts which use this. I remember reading a history of martial arts by Don Draeger. In it, he talks about a great wrestler who said the same thing. Only it was he who had held back and then regretted it (on his deathbed). I still believe in structure and order, I just don’t hold with the secrecy. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

moh
i dont understand why anyone would want to learn a whole bunch of techniques in a short period of time, u just end up becoming less skilled at the basics which are the most important when moving forward with your training. i think schools that teach you alot right away are basically the ones that want your money, they give you everything whether its right or wrong because they are scared u will want to train somewhere else. for all the students i have taught i dont know any that were skilled in all their techniques, and could even remember all they had been taught, especially with the earlier techniques. i think that is a shame and that anyone that whines about wanting to learn everything quickly is basically a juvinile and egotistical. who has more dignity, a school that makes u work hard to better urself in the end, or someone that just hands you what you want. would you be that way with your kids? and as far as pricing at tkf, have any of you shopped around? these precious jiu-jitsu schools and pankration and kick boxing are sure taking advantage with their popularity, most charge over a hundred dollars a month. i even talked to a guy that charged 200. a mnth for one class a week for kung fu in his basement. i learned alot about people, live, dealing with stress and about goodness in people when training at tkf, and i dont think i paid too much for it. as an instructor i had to pay up to brown belt like everyone else, and i made peanuts in pay, barely enough to take the bus to the studio each day, but the positivity made it all worth while. as understanding people we should have an open mind, and feel sympathy for all other humans, so what if simon has some contraversal thoughts ideas, or whatever, the guys is old and has been through alot, making a name for himself, and anyone that wants to build a temple to honor all religions has at least some good in his heart dont u think? i dont see the local wing chung school, or jiu jitsu school striving for these things, and i dont see them working their asses off everyday for ten hours or more to teach babies with wrinkled faces that dont even appreciate it. everyone has a mind and a choice in everything they do in life, stop whining and do whatever you think is right for you.

Hello Formersouth, You posted, “i dont understand why anyone would want to learn a whole bunch of techniques in a short period of time,” Actually, I was speaking of the idea that there were techniques and tactics that were “secret”. The concept of “secret” knowledge was used as a technique to acquire power and wealth. You posted, “u just end up becoming less skilled at the basics which are the most important when moving forward with your training.” On this point we can agree. I actually learned all my stuff really early and had to go back and concentrate on the basics (so I get what you are saying here). Again, it wasn’t the number of things that were held back that eventually got to me; it was the concept of “secrecy” for power and money that did. You posted, “i think schools that teach you alot right away are basically the ones that want your money, they give you everything whether its right or wrong because they are scared u will want to train somewhere else.” Yep! On this point we can agree. You posted, “i think that is a shame and that anyone that whines about wanting to learn everything quickly is basically a juvinile and egotistical.” I don’t recall anyone doing that (outside of beginners). However, I do see seasoned and usually former students of Moh stating the same grievance. “Secrecy” for power and money is not okay. One of the key concepts that I find most beginners have is that secrecy is a must. It’s the old comic book “I-can’t-show-you-my-secret-moves-cause-you-haven’t-given-a-blood-oath” idea. Works great on a beginner but once they twig onto what you’ve done, you can find yourself in hot water. I usually make it clear to my students that I don’t hold back knowledge and that they are going to learn all the moves really quickly. Then they will be expected to perfect those moves. Perfecting something is, of course, a never ending journey. Yet it is this change from beginners mind to an adult’s mind which is precisely what this thread is all about (in my opinion). You posted, “who has more dignity, a school that makes u work hard to better urself in the end, or someone that just hands you what you want. would you be that way with your kids?” Ah, you cut right to the heart of the matter here. Skill is developed from confidence and based on hard work that is consistently done. It must be this way or it doesn’t happen. But beginners usually don’t know what this feels like because they have never experienced it (in my opinion). It is up to the teacher to impress upon them the importance of basics and the need to leave their beginners “egotistical and juvenile” mind behind. You posted, “and as far as pricing at tkf, have any of you shopped around? these precious jiu-jitsu schools and pankration and kick boxing are sure taking advantage with their popularity, most charge over a hundred dollars a month. i even talked to a guy that charged 200. a mnth for one class a week for kung fu in his basement.” No argument. :-D As for the rest of your post, I would disagree but I definitely do not want to rehash the past again (unless pressed). As I understand and as was my experience: Moh Kempo was all about turning out tough fighters and having them pay a lot of money to do so. Some of these people were very good competitors and some were not. A lot of those who stayed in Moh achieved fighting ability. But, in my opinion, that is as far as it got. You posted, “everyone has a mind and a choice in everything they do in life, stop whining and do whatever you think is right for you.” Sometimes, standing up to a perceived injustice and stating a grievance are the right way to go. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE