The Purpose or meaning behind Kata
Hello All, The question of kats's and there importance was brought up and it seems to me that deserves a thread all of its own. I believe it to be a good idea because it is where (IMO) we can begin to break the arts ( MOO kempo in particular) into seperate area of interest. Although all apsects of the arts are intertwined, one building upon, and complimenting the other, each area can also be looked upon and studied individually. In my opinion forms serve many purposes. Some of the more important purposes being that they are an encylclopedia of movement and technique, and also it is a way to preserve the art and hand it down from one generation to the next. A number of years ago ( when the UFC first came about) my training turned almost completely towards the combat sports end of the spectrum. And I tended to get away from traditional training methods. And by that I mean forms, for the most part. I started to view them as impractical and serving no real purpose. It was actually a fellow by the name of Ky Fiedler ( who can be found at www.masterfiedler.com ) who rekindled my love for the traditional side of the arts, and in particular forms. They are a good building block. They can viewed as a whole, or more interestingly, disected, and each technique broken down and ananlyzed. I still like the combat sport end of training, but I also see the value in the traditional side of the arts. And I believe that thats where a large part of todays Martial Arguements stem from. And as time goes on and reality TV promotes things such as "The Ultimate Fighter" these arguements will become more common. A lot of "new age" martial artists will not view Katas as anything to do with Martial Atrs at all. Names like Ark Wong and Eric Lee will slowly be forgotten, and give way to names like Tito Ortiz and Chuck Liddel ( who deserve every bit of recognition they get ). The face of Martial arts is and will continue to change. I like the MMA idea, but I also like preserving the arts of past instructors. And many of the arts of the past consist greatly of forms. It was Ky Fiedler who actually made me think of forms this way: every time I do a form I am walking in the same footsteps as Masters from 50, 100 or even 500 or 1000 years ago. That my friends, is a pretty cool thought. sifu shawn

I guess it depends on what your goals are! I only have one form that I practise, it is 15 minutes long, so it's going to take a long tome to master! I like practising the form because it get's me into the "zone", especially after a few reps 8) It takes a long time to transfer the ability of the form into your actual combat though, so some people will see it as an unnecessary component of their training. Oh, I do train other things apart from the form :D

To all, Hey Sifu Shawn, ya beat me to it! :-D I have what psychologists call a “push/pull” about forms (kata). I like them and I train them but… I sometimes question their fighting edge. Also, I’m very particular about teaching them (nowadays). There is also the politics of the form and how it was part of the biz. This has helped to divide the way I feel about them. I have found that a good fighter is usually capable of demonstrating a good form. But the reverse is not always true. I have also found that one’s belief in a form is a major factor in practice. If someone doesn’t believe in the viability of a move, it isn’t usable (for them). Conversely, if the belief is there, so is all the necessary research, practice, etc. A good example of this is here, from Kempo 1. A side view. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImltlYOnjA4 This most basic movement is applied as an arm break or possibly a hammerlock. Two times this move has saved the lives of my students in edged weapons encounters. Yet it is usually practiced with a follow up180 degree spin and a double block. A facing view http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tOGu6mqdns And done in the manner demonstrated, it is a hidden move. Therefore, as great an emphasis must be placed on the applications, as on solo drills. Or the arm break will not work (nor is it a good sparring move). I have also found that as a general rule, forms come in three flavors. “Totally Technique”- with the emphasis on the individual moves and not tactics “Actual Applications”- here the emphasis is on how to apply the moves in combat “Mixing it Up”- combinations of both techniques and applications. The forms of Mo tend to fall more into the last category, in my opinion. Here is the beginning sequence of Kempo 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFVyCipU_rc It starts with a shifting away double high low block. This is followed by a stance change and a front kick catch. Then there is a groin block (with the outside of the thigh). And the sequence ends with a double block to the kidneys. This last is against 2 different attackers on opposite sides. That is 4 defenses and 3 directions inside of 5 seconds. Next is the first crossover sequence from Kempo 2 Here is a side version. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFX9eXT2PUQ Here is a facing version. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m_oE2eueNY The crossover sequence from Kempo 2 takes 3 to 4 seconds. One crossover covers 2 directions of attacks. (In the version I learned, the swing arm is defending the spine from a front kick.) The front kick is being done by a secondary attacker. The last sequence I have covered tonight is here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfRJq3Ac7EM The sequence from Kempo 2 from the wrist cover through to neutral. There are 3 foot sweep defenses and 6 blocks. This includes 2 sets of double blocks against 2 different attackers. There are also 2 roundhouse kick throws. Now these are the applications that I learned. I have also practiced this form without any thought about the attackers. This gives it a different feel to me. There is also this to consider; Kevin Boone says, “Move number X in kata Y should be a block, not a strike (or vice versa) Many karate practitioners like to believe that the kata they practice are of ancient origin, and no doubt some are. However, the huge variations I've seen in the way kata are taught in different clubs does not give me any confidence that the `true' moves can ever be known with certainty. In big organizations like the JKA and the KUGB, the people at the top can impose their own views on how kata should be performed, but that doesn't mean that their variations are more `authentic' than anyone else's. There is no general agreement even on what kata training was originally intended to achieve, so how can there be agreement on the individual moves?” http://www.kevinboone.com/karate_myths.html There was a time when I felt much like Sifu Shawn. And while I have used a different path than he, we are not so far apart. I have paid a lot for my kata and I’ll always feel divided about them. And that is the way I have come to accept things. Comments? Regards, MrE2Me2

Mr E2Me2, I like them and I train them but… I sometimes question their fighting edge. I agree with you here. However I think the movements within a form are not meant to always be taken literally. ( similar to a koan or a philisophical saying ) I think forms were a way for practitioners to catalog and at the same time hide their techniques. The true meaning of the forms known only to those who are meant to know. And also the forms are meant to be presented with a degree of aesthetic value. I remember Gichen Funakoshi being requested to preform some Kata's in front of an admiral of some sort. ( dont have the information in front of me , but I can look it up if anyone is really needing the particulars) The admiral was so impressed by Funakoshi "delivery" of the katas that he had funakoshi begin to teach some of his people Karate. If he had "delivered" a poor performance who knows what the history of shotokan may have turned out like. However I believe that movements within katas have combative purpose, providing you have a teacher who can show you the true application(s) of what appears to be an otherwise aesthetically appealing movement. The more advanced understanding of the arts one has, the more advanced and varied explanations of kata motions you will be able to give. But if taken literally, the motions may leave you wide open, or vulnerable. I always try to see movements within movements when doing a kata. And hey once in a while "even a blind squirell can find a nut" :lol: sifu shawn

MrE2Me2 There was a time when I felt much like Sifu Shawn. And while I have used a different path than he, we are not so far apart. Even though our paths are in some ways different, I am certainly glad they crossed. sifu shawn

Hello Sifu Shawn, You posted, “However I think the movements within a form are not meant to always be taken literally.” I think you are right. There is also the practice of the forms with emphasis on the timing. While there are certain moves that are straight forward. Like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHo31eZjN_k A straight forward defense against a high right lead followed by a straight left, also done high. There are also some moves which have excellent timing but the techniques are odd. For example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyJxYQAI6-Y Advancing in on a closed crossover is not smart to begin with (imo). Then to catch the side kick before spinning a backhand leaves my back vulnerable. It commits me in ways I prefer not to be committed. Yet, the timing of the combination is what I use when I apply a spinning backhand. And the commitment level is what is necessary if my counter is to work. More, I happen to enjoy the esthetics of this particular move (I think it is neat and tight). I have respect for these forms. Therefore, I have left them intact from the way I learned them. You posted, “…who knows what the history of Shotokan may have turned out like?” I agree. I would like to see more Mo practitioners perform our forms on “YouTube”. As a matter of fact, the more, the merrier. Regards, MrE2Me2 p.s., I too, am glad that our paths have crossed :-D

MrE2Me2, I would like to see more Mo practitioners perform our forms on “YouTube”. As a matter of fact, the more, the merrier. I agree. I hope to put some more up there right away myself. sifu shawn

Hello Sifu Shawn, You posted, “I agree. I hope to put some more up there right away myself.” Cool! I look forward to them. Regards, MrE2Me2

I agree with you guys. I think forms are like a dictionary of moves for the system they represent, except unlike a dictionary the definitions are not included. Sometimes they are obvious and sometimes not, and still others seem obvious and have less obvious applications that you may discover later. This is the stuff that I find the most fun. When you have one of those moments when a lightbulb turns on when you make a new discovery. Especially enjoyable when it's a move you've practiced for years you find something you haven't seen before.

To all, Tonight, I have taken two clips from Kempo 3. Both include the so-called reverse floating block. I did not really have a use for this maneuver, at first. When Freddy showed us some Wing Chun, this block stood right out. First reverse floating block http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vn_5-n-eW0 Through the second one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VQ-LGToq1c Yet there are elbow blocks and palm blocks and wrist traps here. So there are also attackers coming from 3 directions. I’m not saying I’d use it. But I’d definitely use parts of it. Regards, MrE2Me2

Hello Current Student, I didn’t see your post until I had already posted mine. L.O.L.! You posted, “I think forms are like a dictionary of moves for the system they represent, except unlike a dictionary the definitions are not included.” Sometimes that is the way things go, I guess. I learned two very different ways of performing Kempo 1, 2 and 3. In Edmonton, it was flashier but Vancouver is the way I personally prefer to practice it. I just makes more sense to me when I do it that way. The techniques, timing and tactics tend to stand out more when I pick it apart for research. You posted, “When you have one of those moments when a lightbulb turns on when you make a new discovery.” Yes, I hear that. Yet after I had left, it took a long time for me to relearn to enjoy my forms again. Regards, MrE2Me2

Hello to All, I've been a little cramped for time since this thread was started, but it appears to be developing quite nicely! Some great observations have been made and I particularly liked this thought of Sifu shawn's. Many kind regards ~ Yen Hui ... think of forms this way: every time I do a form I am walking in the same footsteps as Masters from 50, 100 or even 500 or 1000 years ago. That my friends, is a pretty cool thought. A very cool thing, indeed, but it also expresses the right spirit of respect to be shown to the Past Masters and the "unbroken" Tradition handed down by them. This' one reason why I think it's a good idea to hand down the katas as they were received; but also with any "variations", clearly distinguished as such, and properly designated as Master "so-and- so's" interpretation of the Form(s). It would be helpful to both masters and disciples to know the "originals" and what other masters further down line thought about them, and how they could be improved! At any rate, here's an interesting book on the subject, which looks like it would be a worthwhile addition to my bookshelf:- Kata and the Transmission of Knowledge: In Traditional Martial Arts @ http://www.amazon.com/Kata-Transmission-Knowledge-Traditional-Martial/dp/1594390266/sr=8-12/qid=1161099539/ref=sr_1_12/102-0335010-6305770?ie=UTF8&s=books An Amazon Reader Book Review of the Above Title:- This work is a thinking person's guide to martial erudition rather than a "how to" book about combat technique. Through Rosenbaum's words, we learn the power of kata (patterns of movements containing a series of logical and practical offensive and defensive techniques) to transmit proven methodologies from one generation to the next. This brilliantly researched tome provides important insight into the history and development of martial arts - both military and civilian. It is more of a textbook than a light afternoon read, yet it provides fantastic insight into the views and ethics of societies that created the fighting forms that many of us practice today. I learned a lot from it. There is one flaw in this work which, though not significant, is pretty annoying: there are 43 illustrations, more than half of which are truly awful. It would have been better off without most of them. Now that I got that off my chest, the main theme of the book is that through understanding the evolution of an art form and how martial knowledge is transmitted via kata, practitioners build a greater appreciation of their art and what it truly means to practice it. The author leads us through a journey back in time, where we see consistent evidence of martial systems being influenced by those that came before and/or invaded. Rosenbaum demonstrates that katas in one form or another were used by ancient Greek, Egyptian, Asian, African, and European societies, and that poetry, dance, and song were also significant methods of preserving and transmitting battle-tested fighting strategies and tactics across the ages. Michael Rosenbaum really knows his stuff. He began his martial arts training at the age of five. Along with Isshin Ryu karate, which he has been practicing for 25 years, he has studied Bando, Judo, and Boxing. Rosenbaum is former member of the elite 82nd Airborne Division of the U.S. Army, and has completed Infantry, Airborne, and Jungle Warfare Schools. I found his work extremely well researched and informative. Lawrence Kane Author of 'Surviving Armed Assaults', 'The Way of Kata', and 'Martial Arts Instruction'!

Hello Yen Hui, You aren't the only one who has been cramped for space. You make some interesting observations, for sure. Regards, MrE2Me2 To all, Here are two views of the middle section of Kempo Three. They are taken from the beginning of the overhand back knuckle drop Facing at ¼ speed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwPkq4ixdYI Side view at ½ speed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIzASmxorjQ The description: First I partially withdraw to an open x and execute the side kick catch and strike. This is followed by a side swing kick to the groin. (Yes, I know that in later eras it is a back heel swing kick.) Next I come down with an overhand raking back knuckle and follow up uppercut. It was never explained to me how this was to be applied. Since, if I crotch the guy, he is likely to fall over, I assumed it is another attacker. This is also similar to the same arm combination of Hung Three. It would be easy to confuse them. But very hard to go through Hung and then back to Kempo Three. Someone who was able to do that, would have to have a Master’s ability. ;-) I advance, turning into another open x and perform a left cross downward block. This was supposed to be against a front kick. The next maneuver is hidden. It is supposed to be a throw against the front kick but it isn’t shown like that here. It looks like a couple of basic blocks, instead. I move laterally into a riding horse stance while executing a pulling the sword punch. This is immediately followed by a Cantonese thrust punch. Then I step with my left again into a left forward bow while firing off a rising block. I immediately counter with a right Cantonese thrust punch. Next I advance into yet another open x, this time angled. While stepping I execute a sweeping palm block and inverted backhand strike. Then I use a spinning knifehand. At this point, I was taught to punch and then palm thrust. But I found the punch to be too far away and my posture to be too twisted. Instead I go from the spinning kinifehand directly to the palm heel thrust. (I would consider this a change because I was not taught this in any school of Mo.) The total: That is six separate defending combinations. There are, what, eight stance changes there? And four blocks with two traps or throws. One kick and eight (or nine) strikes. All this is done in less than 9 seconds at ½ speed! This is one of the trickier sections of the forms, for me. I am constantly challenged by it. Regards, MrE2Me2

Mr E2Me2, How are ya my friend? Sorry all as well, I ve had a busy week here. Yen Hui I liked your ideas about having knowledge of when , where and why forms have changed through time. Just some food for thought Mr E2Me2 It was never explained to me how this was to be applied. Since, if I crotch the guy, he is likely to fall over, I assumed it is another attacker. Lets suppose the groin kick is not designed as a "takeout" kick but as a tactic to bring the opponents head forward, the downward backfist could then target the bridge of the nose. I always teach my students to follow up to the head after a groin shot. In real time a kick to the groin does not always drop your opponent. Often however just striking towards the groin causes most men to shoot their butts back getting their groin out of the way ( its almost a reflex action) as they retract the groin the head comes forward. I like the concept of using the groin strike to bring the head forward, particularly the eyes. Groin kick, draw the head forward, finger jab to the eyes. Now in context of the movement in Kempo three: groin kick, opponent either bends forward from pain or from a reflex of his groin being targeted ,and the downward backfist crushes the nose, then follow up with the uppercut. This however is just the theoretical ramblings of a Moo Mad Man, definitely not the gospel. sifu shawn

Hello Sifu Shawn, You posted, “Lets suppose the groin kick is not designed as a "takeout" kick but as a tactic to bring the opponents head forward, the downward backfist could then target the bridge of the nose.” I hadn’t considered that. It is a good move! Thanks! Regards, MrE2Me2