The Principle of Justification

Simply stated, The Principle of Justification” is why they fight. It is also how long, how hard and how far they’d go in a fight. It is about being able to live with what they have done. It is about legal and moral justification for their actions. Your comments? Now I know that others have developed similar ideas. Sifu Shawn posted about “medium minimum threat level”. What do the rest of you have to say about this? Hello MrE2Me2 ~ You've raised a very important and equally interesting subject. I wish I could say it was an easy one to address, but it gets quite involved, once the investigation of principle is under foot. I'm not too sure how helpful I can be, as my own personal experience is rather limited; but I'll try and share some of Mr. Leishman's thoughts on this subject, the best I can remember them. First, though, I wish to commend you for your very thoughtful approach and it bodes well for your students! As pointed out in other comments about Mr. Leishman, his approach to the fist-art was highly mental, by which I mean to say, spiritual and psychological. All such teachings, however, were always given out very sparingly, and well-grounded in the lesson at hand. For example, the principle of holistic awareness was taught from the get-go, at White Belt, in regard to becoming aware of one's body and the principles of form and timing. The practice of holistic awareness would later expand, in the higher belts, to include penetrating the opponent's mind or inner world, on a psychic level, in order to detect the first imperceptible signs of change. There's a saying in the I Ching, that "to know the seeds is divine indeed." Now, according to the I Ching, the seeds are the first imperceptible or intangible signs of change, which are discovered and known by an intuitive perception of present time reality. This intuitive way of knowing and proceeding is absolutely essential, according to Mr. Leishman, and the mastery of the art can be never completely realized without it. However, this way of perceiving the imperceptible is only experienced in the benevolent state of fearlessness and emotional clarity. Now, I must reiterate that Leishman's view(s) in this regard, like everything else, was deeply rooted in the anthropological 'teaching(s)' of the I Ching, on human nature. Now, according to Hexagram One, the Tao of human nature is expressed or manifested in terms of Four Cardinal Virtues: Benevolence, Justice, Reverence, and Wisdom. Wisdom, for example, is man's innate knowing of Nature and the fixed laws that govern it. Reverence, according to the I Ching, is the basis of all true culture and art; and thus, the right basis for the study of kung-fu. As the irreligious mind may tend to recoil a little from the term 'reverence', it is perhaps better to think of it in terms of 'respect' for human nature, and all life for that matter, visible and invisible, and the Great Cosmic Law of the Universe. Those who lack this virtue, i.e. respect for Nature, should not be taught the fist-art, in my personal opinion. In any event, this is not usually a real concern or issue in the lower belt levels, but is something to be seriously considered at higher levels. In Leishman's mind, such individuals can never truly master the fist-art, let alone Black Belt! I'll not say anything more about this at present, but will return to it if later questioned about it. Now, it was Leishman's view that benevolence and fear cannot and do not co-exist, side by side. He would say that when we're properly centered, and flowing or moving in a balanced state of harmony with our true nature, that is to say, in the state of primal innocence and emotional clarity, free from all subjective attitudes, we are fearless. According to the I Ching, fear is an acquired mental state and un-natural to the human psyche. This state of emotional clarity, in Leishman's experience, was essentially one of being in a harmonious state with all persons and things, and thus being fearless. On one occasion, Mr. Leishman told me that when he was striving toward mastery, he experienced his greatest difficulty or challenges, on a purely emotional level, with the principle and practice of strategic blocking; obviously because he did'nt much like getting hit, if the truth be known. From what I could gather, at one point in his training he tried to master blocking before striking, because of this fear; only to discover that this was the wrong approach, mainly because his fear of being smucked was obscuring his inner radar, intuitive perception of his opponent's vibrations or chi impulses! Eventually, though, he came to realize, through much pain and struggle, that the Way through this obstruction was to master striking first, in order to overcome his own fear of being severely peppered; which fear was obstructing his ability to discern the first imperceptible signs of change in his opponents inner world. He reasoned that if he mastered striking first, and all the different flight paths and ways a strike could be delivered, then he would be better equipped for the task of mastering the principle and application of blocking. However, as you well know, striking out, if not done right, according to principle, can get a person into hot water really quick; thus, it is highly advisable to know how to get out of trouble just as quickly, if not quicker, in order to avoid falling into the Abyss! (See Hex. 29 for insights into the Principle of the Abyss.) Thus, in keeping with this view of things, he taught the Principle of Retreat prior to the Principle of Striking, and striking before the Principle of Blocking; as this path seemed to accord best with maintaining the state of holistic awareness and emotional clarity, amidst all external conflicts. Anyway, there is much more that can be said regarding the above principles, as what I've stated hardly even introduces them, and I'd like to say more, and attempt to ground them better in the I Ching; but perhaps an ensuing discussion may give some occasion to revisit the topic later. Of the Four Cardinal Virtues, though, I have not yet said anything about the tao of justice, which I'll attempt to address momentarily. First, though, I'd like to recommend the following materials online which will fill-out and expand some of the above items, for all who may be interested:- 01 - On Law, Nature and Feelings http://www.humanistictexts.org/chuhsi.htm#Law,%20Nature%20and%20Feelings 02 - Solicitude, Sincereity, and Seriousness http://www.humanistictexts.org/chuhsi.htm#Solicitude,%20Sincerity,%20Seriousness 03 - On Cultivating an Upright Mind http://www.humanistictexts.org/wang.htm#Cultivating%20an%20Upright%20Mind 04 - On Man's Intuitive Faculty http://www.humanistictexts.org/wang.htm#Intuitive%20Faculty 05 - On Passion and Desire http://www.humanistictexts.org/wang.htm#Passion,%20Desire Now, with specific regard to the Principle of Justification, Mr. Leishman introduced it at the Yellow Belt level, in terms of what he defined as the principles of Combative Mind and Key Selection. He defined Combative Mind as "a profound inner seriousness, from which all outer terrors glance off harmlessly." This expression is borrowed from Hex. 51, or the Principle of the Arousing (I Ching, p. 198). Now, in order to better meet or act in harmony with the potential threat level of the moment, he defined five distinct degrees or modes of Combative Mind:- 1 - Stunning, 2 - Knock-Out, 3 - Bone-Breaking, 4 - Maiming, and 5 - Killing. In conjunction with this principle, he also taught the Principle of Key Selection, which was largely determined by one's inner perception of the immediate threat potential. However, as indicated above, one's inner perception is not always accurate, especially if it is clouded by fear and other like subjective interests or attitudes. Consequently, in order to truly meet and harmonize with the combative moment at hand, one needed to clarify one's intuitive perception of reality. This is what Leishman referred to as "purifying the feelings", in order to attune oneself to the chi force and the inner surges or impulses of justice. If what I'm saying here seems a little obscure, the above materials I have linked may shed some light on the subject. Many kind regards ~ Yen Hui

Hello North, I see your wink and I smile. But I also had a friend who went to another kung fu school. It was just to see what they offered. As soon as he walked into the school, the teacher approached. The teacher said, “Hit me!” So my friend said, “What?” The teacher repeated his demand. So my friend faked for his groin and touched him on the jaw with a backfist. Then he left. I also remember your response to my “Tales of Training”. It was the one where Olaf kicked the football player in the groin. You said something to the effect that you would have taken the guy aside. So obviously you have a code of conduct that you believe in and act upon. In all seriousness, what is it? Do you teach it directly, as part of your curriculum? Or do you use a more subtle approach? Regards, MrE2Me2 p.s., The tip about the rolling pin on the shins is working Great…uh, for my cousin. :-D Actually I use the law as my curriculum for the largest part. I make my students aware of what is and isn't legal, they all sign a copy of the laws on self defence. They understand full and well what they can and cannot do in this country. That alone should be enough, but for some more is needed. For them I mostly mention how if learning to do harm is so easy then one would never want an enemy they did harm upon in the past. Only a kung fu master can block a sucker punch. ;) I'm glad the rolling pin is working already, but give it a couple more years yet. :)

Hello Yen Hui, Thank you for taking the time to respond to my thread. I find your ideas quite interesting. I don’t know if I agree with the one about benevolence and fear not being able to coexist. I definitely do not think that fear is an acquired mental state. No disrespect is intended here, maybe we are using the same words to describe different concepts. So I’ll try using different words to describe what I think you are trying to tell me. In a combat situation, one who is highly trained will be fully aware of the situation. He will recognize the dangers awaiting him and will act accordingly. There is no time for thoughts like, “Oh my, now I’m in for it.” There is no time for anything but awareness of the danger and action. Therefore what one trains is what one will have. The same is true of justifications. If I can justify harming a two legged predator intent upon harming me, then I will allow myself to fight effectively. Tangent time: No, I haven’t seen the latest from Jet Li. Is it good? I try not to read reviews unless I know the reviewer’s approach ahead of time. About Mr. Leishman experiencing his greatest difficulties on an emotional level: Yep! That says it for me too! Perhaps striking first is not the proper word choice here. Maybe it is better to, “Establish a Command Presences” (as our L.E.O.’s would say). Regards, MrE2Me2

Hello North, Thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread. Where, may I ask, do you get your copies of “the laws of self defense”? Regards, MrE2Me2 p.s, About the rolling pin. I use it slightly on my shins as you recommended. I have also been taping them with a shinai as Sifu Shawn recommended. There are bruises showing already. No pain or soreness, just bruising.

MrE2Me2 Here is a post with my Shinai conditioning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axw7DaYuXk8 sifu shawn

Hello Sifu Shawn, I sent you an email, did you get it? The vid is Most Impressive! Regards, MrE2Me2

You can snag a copy of the laws on self defence from the internet even. Just look up "Canadian criminal code use of force" or so on. I believe it is section 34 of the Canadian Criminal Code. It's somewhat vague stuff mostly stating that judgement is required to the amount of force needed but never more than needed.

Tangent time: No, I haven’t seen the latest from Jet Li. Is it good? He claims that he broke seven bones making this flick and that it's his last kung-fu flick of this kind. At 43 yrs of age, he claims he has has said all he has to say regarding kung-fu, and literally broken every bone in his body at least once in the process of saying it. That's it, he's done with it now! Apparently. Anyway, my favorite scene: near the end, he is sitting at table with some one and asked if he thinks one kung-fu style is better or superior to another. And he replies that he does not think any style is superior, but that superior or inferior are personal qualities. The style is what you make of it, personally. After all, the skill of a tradesman is not so much in his tools, as in his heart and hands. The tools are merely an extension of the hands. Right? Anyway, that particular scene really spoke to me as that was exactly what Leishman use to always say, and he was very big on cross-training with other stylists. He use to say that to be continuously looking for new and more effective kung-fu technique(s) was more a sign of weakness and insecurity, than anything else! In fact, he did very much with MOH like what you've done, by simplifying most of the motions, and removing all the unnecessary or extraneous circular movements, in the application of it. I find your ideas quite interesting. I don’t know if I agree with the one about benevolence and fear not being able to coexist. I definitely do not think that fear is an acquired mental state. No disrespect is intended here, maybe we are using the same words to describe different concepts. Thank you for your kind words and sorry for the delayed reply! Yes, I think we're basically on the same track, despite the different vocabulary. And to be perfectly honest about it, Mr. Leishman did not always approve of my choice of words; and a few of the words or terms I've chosen to express myself by, were not really ones that he used too often, if at all. As an example, though, in Hex. One, the term "Great Harmony" is introduced, and 'harmony' is perhaps the most important Chinese philosophical concept of all time, and yet he never used the term in my presence, at least that I can remember. He spoke, instead, of being 'centered' and knowing 'emotional acceptance'; but whenever he spoke of such things, though, I understood him immediately to mean the 'Great Harmony' of Hexagram One. I don't think he'd debate on this, as much as he might try to simplify or clarify the manner of expression, by choosing terms which are more accessible, or more easily understood by the largest number of people. On the I Ching's teaching about harmony, though, here are a few expressive passages:- 01 - "The way to success lies in apprehending and giving actuality to the way of the universe , which, as a law running through end and beginning, brings about all phenomena in time ... etc. 'The course (i.e. tao) of the Creative alters and shapes beings until each attains its true, specific nature, then keeps them in conformity with the Great Harmony.' Thus does it show itself to further through perseverance." ( 'Hexagram One' , I Ching, p. 5 ) 02 - " There are conditions of equilibrium, in which a certain harmony prevails, and conditions of disturbed equilibrium, in which confusion prevails. The reason is that there is a system (i.e. Program) of order pervading the entire world. When, in accordance with this order, each thing is in its appropriate place, harmony is established." ( 'The Great Treatise' , I Ching, p. 282 ) 03 - "Here we are shown how with the help of the fundamental principles of the Book of Changes it is possible to arrive at a complete realization of man's innate capacities. This unfolding rests on the fact that man has innate capacities that resemble heaven and earth, that he is a microcosm. Now, since the laws of heaven and earth are reproduced in the Book of Changes, man is provided with the means of shaping his own nature, so that his inborn potentialities for good can be completely realized. In this process two factors are to be taken into account: wisdom and action, or intellect and will. If intellect and will are correctly centered, the emotional life takes on harmony ... etc." ( 'The Treatise' , I Ching, p. 295-296 ) 04 - "If a man remains at the mercy of moods of hope or fear aroused by the outer world, he loses his inner consistency of character ... etc. Such experiences are not merely effects produced by the external world, but logical consequences evoked by his own nature." ( I Ching, p. 128 ) 05 - "A quiet, wordless, self-contained joy, desiring nothing from without and resting content with everything, remains free of all egotistic likes and dislikes. In this freedom lies good fortune, because it harbors the quiet security of a heart fortified within itself." ( I Ching, p. 225) It's difficult for me to say just how Mr. Leishman might qualify his meaning, concerning benevolence and fearlessness, specifically, but I can say with some degree of certainty, that he did not speak in a conceptual manner, but from a profoundly deep, first-hand experience of the subject. From what I could gather, he experienced fear essentially as a blind impulse that confuses and deludes the human heart, and thus as an egotistc drive rooted in delusion, rather than the clear-mindedness of empty awareness. But that's just my opinion, whatever it's worth. The I Ching says "through hardness and selfishness the heart grows rigid, and the rigidity leads to seperation from all others. Egotism and cupidity isolate men." (p. 228) And since fear seperates us from men, then it must essentially be a form of egotism. Benevolence is not egotistic, on the other hand, and does not harden the heart and seperate us from others. Rather, it unites men, making them one in spirit! And to achieve sovereign mastery of the psychic sphere, all egotistic drives must be eliminated. But whether or not he was correct, I think the essential point he was making is that fear must be overcome, and the emotions well disciplined for the decisive moment of truth! So I’ll try using different words to describe what I think you are trying to tell me. In a combat situation, one who is highly trained will be fully aware of the situation. He will recognize the dangers awaiting him and will act accordingly. There is no time for thoughts like, “Oh my, now I’m in for it.” There is no time for anything but awareness of the danger and action. Therefore what one trains is what one will have. Yes, this is precisely my meaning. There is little to no thought happening in the application of pure kung-fu. The training should be continued to the point that all responses become spontaneous in nature, and non- contrived; as in the other thread where you describe your experience of 'no-mind' in kung-fu application. When the kung-fu can spontaneously manifest and flow like that, it has become a true 'art-form', and not before then! When it requires no more effort or thought than breathing or walking, then we have truly achieved something of significance! The same is true of justifications. If I can justify harming a two legged predator intent upon harming me, then I will allow myself to fight effectively. Yes, however, one's internal sense or feeling of what is right and wrong must be cultivated and purified, so that one's actions are squared according to the rule of justice. Thus the five distinct degrees or modes of combative mind train us to do what is right, according to our internal sense or feeling in that moment of truth. A killing blow would not be suitable, and hardly a just choice, if a stunning blow is all that was required to meet the event in the spirit of justice. The I Ching teaches that Nature (and thus the chi force) is by nature just, and is a creative impulse in the heart of every man. It says that the perfected nature of man is the gateway of the tao and justice. If the heart is pure, then the impulses are just and safe to follow. Thus, the training must involve fine-tuning ourselves to it, as it will tell us how precisely far to go, how hard, and how long, if we are receptive to it, that is!! Here's a random slection of texts, mainly from the I Ching, which have some bearing on the subject at hand. If I had more time, I could put some up that better illustrate my meaning. However, time is fleeting and I must be too, so here they are, for better or worse! 01 - "Men will support only those undertakings which they feel instinctively to be just." ( I CHING, p. 192 ) 02 - "The place of the heart is reached. The impulse that springs from this source is the most important of all. It is of particular concern that this influence be constant and good." ( I CHING, p. 124 ) 03 - "He is dealing with a weaker opponent and might therefore succeed. But he cannot carry on the fight, because, since right is not on his side, he cannot justify the conflict to his conscience." ( I CHING, p. 30-31) 04 - "There is no general law to say which of the two is the right way. Each one in this situation must make a free choice according to the inner law of his being. If the individual acts consistently and is true to himself, he will find the way that is appropriate for him. This way is right for him and without blame." ( I CHING, p. 9) 05 - "The inner life becomes right through consistent seriousness; the outer life becomes correct (square) through fulfillment of duty. Duty has a shaping influence on outer life, yet it is by no means something external. Through seriousness and fulfillment of duty, character develops richly of itself; greatness (i.e. mastery) comes unsought, of its own accord. Therefore in all matters the individual hits upon the right course instinctively and without reflection, because he is free of all those scruples and doubts which induce a timid vacillation and lame the power of decision." (p. 394) 06 - "The empty awareness of the human mind cannot be deceived in the least about what is right and what is wrong, what is permissible and what is not. Inherent in this mind is a measuring scale for whatever has to do with when to act and when to stop. If we are willing to rely on this fundamental mind in our conduct, and satisfy this mind in all matters, this is gathering together virtue, this is reflecting back and finding ourselves to be upright. This is precisely the tradition that Mencius received via Zeng Zi." ( 'Worldly Wisdom' , p. 33 ) 07 - "He must be alone and objective. In this sacred hour he must do without companions, so that the purity of the moment may not be spoiled by factional hates and favoritism." ( I CHING, p. 12) 08 - "One is still in harmony with primal innocence. Not yet influenced by obscuring interests and desires, one sees things intuitively as they really are." ( I CHING, p. 202 ) 09 - "Only because nature in its myriad forms corresponds with the myriad impulses of the Creative can it make these impulses real." ( I CHING, p. 12 ) 10 - "Feelings are inner connections with an impulse to act outwardly." ( from the 'Huai Nan Tzu', Pocket Edition, p. 42) 11 - On "the complete elimination of egotistic drives." ( I CHING, p. 203 ) 12 - "Become free of blind impulse." ( I CHING, p. 181 ) Question: Define a "blind impulse" and provide as many examples as you can? Is it recommended or safe to follow blind impulses at any time, let alone in the heat of a a true kung-fu event? Perhaps striking first is not the proper word choice here. Maybe it is better to, “Establish a Command Presences” (as our L.E.O.’s would say). A "command presence" is a very good way to express it, imo! Taking control of the situation, at the very threshold, if not sooner. However, it is my feeling that Leishman believed that even this approach was limited, especially in a multiple opponent scenario, so long as it depended on conscious manipulation. All such limitations are transcended, though, when one enters the 'wu' state of mind. ( 'The White Priest ', p. 58 ) The I Ching refers to this state as ' wu wei ', or the way of unconscious manipulation, or non-contrivance and effortless effort. This is the state of mind which seperates 5th and 6th degree masters, according to Leishman. The response of a 5th degree master is still contrived, or still participates, in some sense, in conscious and wilfull manipulation, but the 6th degree master, he use to claim, follows the Wayless Way of Non- Contrivance! In the 'wu' state of Mind, the Art is activated and governed by a much Higher Law within the Mind, at which time the Kung-Fu seems to take on a life of its own, and we become but mere observers and witnesses to the manifestation of Divine Justice. As stated above, the Tao of Man (i.e. Humanity) is Benevolence, Justice, Reverence, and Wisdom, and it is stated very clearly in 'The Great Treatise' that Nature is always Just; and that "the perfected nature of man, sustaining itself and enduring, is the gateway of Tao and Justice". (I Ching, p. 303) Now, according to Hexagram One, the Tao of Justice is, and I quote it directly, to create "the conditions in which each receives that which accords with his being, that which is due him and which constitutes his happiness." (I Ching, p. 6) And of course the I Ching teaches that Divine Justice and Nature are always on the side of Principle and Pure Receptivity. Now, in the moment of Truth, what might be the just deserts of the person trying to give you a little taste of their Dim-Mak skill(s)?

Hello Yen Hui, Thank you for making the time and effort in your response here. I’m not really a Jet Li fan, although I did enjoy “Fist of Legend” (I own a copy). I too, am a serious believer that it is the person and not the style that makes the difference. Except, that I was once defeated soundly in my prime, by a man much smaller than I. He did it with half his mind to it and after he had taken a four year lay off from kung fu. So, I’d have to say that my italicized statement is less absolute than I would prefer. I find that I really enjoy hearing about what Mr. Leishman did and did not do, even when I disagree with him. That is a polite way of saying that I know at least one martial artist who has acquired many different techniques and forms from many different styles throughout his long and successful career. But I don’t see him as either weak or insecure. On the other hand, I have removed as many motions that I have because I felt it was a better way for me to go. Knowing that someone else has also done this leaves me feeling pleased. You posted, “I think the essential point he was making is that fear must be overcome, and the emotions well disciplined for the decisive moment of truth!” I concur with that. You posted, “.Yes, however, one's internal sense or feeling of what is right and wrong must be cultivated and purified, so that one's actions are squared according to the rule of justice. Thus the five distinct degrees or modes of combative mind train us to do what is right, according to our internal sense or feeling in that moment of truth. A killing blow would not be suitable, and hardly a just choice, if a stunning blow is all that was required to meet the event in the spirit of justice.“ Also about the ‘wu’ state of mind. I believe that we are on the same page here, as well. Uh…I don’t quite know how to say this, so please don’t take offense, but I don’t actually follow the I Ching. I know what it is at a rudimentary level but that is about it. When he was in Edmonton, Mr. Leishman did not talk of the I Ching (just so you know). Regards, MrE2Me2 p.s,. This is a bit off topic but since you finished your post with a comment about dim mak, I thought you might enjoy this :-D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ&mode=related&search=

I’m not really a Jet Li fan, although I did enjoy “Fist of Legend” (I own a copy). Hello MrE2Me2! I know exactly what you're saying, 'cause I'm not a big Jet Li fan either, and own just a couple of his DVD's, one of which is "Fists of Legend". And since you liked "Fists of Legend", then you'll probably like "Fearless" as well, since its based on the same "true story" about the same Jin Wu (Ging Wu?) master, Huo Yuanjia, who was poisoned during a match in "Fists of Legend". The only difference in this sort-of remake, is that this time around, Li plays the poisoned master, instead of the disciple trying to avenge his master's death and School's honor. "Fearless" also ventures into much greater detail about the life of Huo Yuanjia, founder of the Chinese Jinwu Sports Federation, where we witness to a great transformation in his life, which ultimately led to the formation of the Jinwu School. Anyway, here's a description of the story- line which I found online @ http://ae.philly.com/entertainment/ui/philly/movie.html;jsessionid=AF16D7B3EC88A0A7E0CEBBA7836A3E3A.prodapp14_ae_02?id=701831&reviewId=21505 : "Li plays haughty, brilliant wushu master Huo Yuanjia, whose recklessness leads to tragedy after he becomes a champion at the end of the 19th century. "Disgraced and alone, he all but dies, until he comes under the care of blind Moon (Betty Sun) and her grandmother. Years of village life convince him to start the Jinwu Sports Federation to teach a healthy union of body, mind and soul. But his "team" -- China itself, overrun in 1910 by foreigners -- needs him to compete in a four-fold bout against an Englishman, an American, a Frenchman and a Japanese man. "Huo represents national pride in a movie that's strongly anti-West, at least as the corrupting West was perceived in the first decade of the 20th century. More to the point, he represents ideals all of us might well adopt, at least in the opinion of debut scriptwriter Chris Chow. (The American virtue of self-assertion, if virtue it be, isn't valued here.) "Huo was a real-life character who died just months before the Chinese shrugged off the ruling Qing dynasty -- seen by many as a puppet government propped up by foreign imperialists -- and declared the Republic of China in January 1912. Li plays him first with roaring arrogance and then with dignity and humility, but not as a saint. Though his voice had to be dubbed, his emotions are genuine and universal." Incidentally, I wonder if there's any connection between Huo Yuanjia's 'Jinwu Sports Federation of China' and Grandmaster Stan Lee's 'Ging Wu Association' ( @ http://www.gingwu.com/founder.asp) of Alberta, Canada? Btw, I find it very interesting that of all the pictures the Ging Wu Association could post online of their Founder, they chose one in which he's evading a kick being delivered by Simon. Then immediately below that picture, they post the following statement: "After relocating to Edmonton, Grand Master Lee began passing on his knowledge to a few select students. At that point he came to the realization that there existed a need for a Kung Fu studio in the Edmonton area. His aspirations for a place to train came to fruition in approximately 1969 when he was finally in a position to open the Canadian Ging Wu Kung-Fu Club." It seems to me like the Association is implying, or intentionally giving the appearance that Simon was one of Grandmaster Lee's "few select students". Am I reading something into this that is'nt really there? I mean, why the photo with Simon and not some other 1st generation disciple? Anyway, though I was'nt the biggest Jet Li fan, I am sad to hear he has called it quits on making these kind of flicks. I thought he was tougher than that, and would hang in there as long as Jackie Chan! There's a few more cheesie kung-fu cult movies from the 70's that need to be redone, before he retires, like the 'Master Killer' (a.k.a. '36 Chambers of Shaolin') to name only one. I too, am a serious believer that it is the person and not the style that makes the difference. Except, that I was once defeated soundly in my prime, by a man much smaller than I. He did it with half his mind to it and after he had taken a four year lay off from kung fu. So, I’d have to say that my italicized statement is less absolute than I would prefer. I find that I really enjoy hearing about what Mr. Leishman did and did not do, even when I disagree with him. That is a polite way of saying that I know at least one martial artist who has acquired many different techniques and forms from many different styles throughout his long and successful career. But I don’t see him as either weak or insecure. Well, I did say he said it was "more a sign of weakness and insecurity, than anything else," intending to imply by this that he thought there were exceptions to the rule, and that it was not always "a sign of insecurity". There are clearly instances in which this is not the case. However, if the secret of superiority lies in the number of different techniques a person can master in a single life-time, then all the ancient wisdom teachings are wrong, 'cause they teach something different. The point I think Leishman was trying to make was that the fist-art is not an end in itself, but merely a vehicle for the complete realization of one's true or higher nature; and that once this goal had been successfully achieved, there is little need, if any, for learning a new form of kung-fu. At the time, he asserted that the true path to enlightenment within kung- fu was not in seeking to master multiple systems, but in learning how to achieve and flow in the 'wu' state of mind, trusting in our higher nature to respond correctly to all external conflict, without our conscious and wilfull interference. And what prevents us from being able to achieve this high goal, in most cases, according to Mr. Leishman, is our ego and emotions. One does'nt need to learn a dozen different styles to reach this point of departure and release. Rarely is it the case, I feel, that a true master of one system, who has refined his nature to the point of being able to flow in and out of the 'wu' state of mind, at will, and is able to operate flawlessly while in that state, that he'll put on a White Belt again to study a completely new system. Why, or why not, is an important question for us to consider, I feel. I'm sure there are some extenuating circumstances where this does happen, especially if you're "a golden boy" who has the very rare privilege of a close association with several top masters who are willing to pass onto you everything they know, only if you're willing to receive it, and swear to uphold their honor and lineages. In one way, I'm kind of envious of such individuals, if you know what I mean. Anyhow, about the personal defeat you have graciously revealed to us, there's just one thing more about it I'd like to know: What frame of mind were you in that day? Were you responding to him in the same frame of mind that you responded to K.R.'s roundhouse with? If not, then perhaps it was your frame of mind on that particular day, rather than your system or skill level, that caused your defeat. With regard to this, Leishman use to say that if we're in the right frame of mind, and adhering to principle, and if our cause was a just cause, then Nature would be on our side, and defend us even against a technically superior fist-artist who was acting contrary to principle and against his conscience. Concerning the mental state which the fist-artist should rightly seek to cultivate, I've here posted 3 short stories from the ancient Chinese sage named Chuang Tzu, which express the essence of the ancient teachings for us. I am posting them here as I believe they are worth our consideration, in light of the goal set before us, and it was in this light that Mr. Leishman applied himself to the mastery and refinement of the Way:- 1 - On the Limitations of Skillful Technique Once a butcher was cutting up an ox for a king. As he felt with his hand, leaned in with his shoulder, stepped in and bent a knee to it, the carcass fell apart with a peculiar sound as he played his cleaver. The king, expressing admiration, said to the butcher, "Good! It seems that this is the consummation of technique." The butcher put down his cleaver and replied, "What I like is the Way (Tao), which is more advanced than technique. But I will present something of technique. "When I first began to cut up oxen, all I saw was an ox. Even after three years I still had not seen a whole ox. Now I meet it with spirit rather than look at it with my eyes. "When sensory knowledge stops, then the spirit is ready to act. Going by the natural pattern, I separate the joints, following the main apertures, according to the nature of its formation. I have never even cut into a mass of gristle, much less a large bone. "A good butcher changes cleavers every year because of damage; a mediocre butcher changes cleavers every month because of breakage. I've had this cleaver for nineteen years now, and it has cut up thousands of oxen; yet its blade is as though it had newly come from the whet- stone." 2 - On the Nature of Mental Fasting Yen Hui asked Confucius, "May I hear about mental fasting?" Confucius replied, "You unify your will: hear with the mind instead of the ears; hear with the energy instead of the mind. Hearing stops at the ears, the mind stops at contact, but energy is that which is empty and responsive to others. The Way gathers in emptiness; emptiness is mental fasting." Yen Hui said, "The reason I have'nt been able to master this is because I consider myself really me. If I could master this, 'I' would not exist. Could that be called emptiness?" Confucius said, "That's all there is to it. I tell you, you can go into the political arena without being moved by repute. If you are heard, then speak; if not, then stop. Let there be no dogma, no drastic measures: remain consistent and abide by necessity. Then you'll be close. "It is easy to obliterate tracks, hard not to walk on the ground. It is easy to use falsehood in working for people; it is hard to use falsehood in working for nature. "I have heard of flying with wings; I have never heard of flying without wings. I have heard of knowing with knowledge; I have never heard of knowing without knowledge. "For those who gaze into space, the empty room produces white light; auspicious signs hover in stillness. But if one does not stay here, that is galloping even while sitting. "If you have your ears and eyes penetrate inwardly, and are detached from conceptual knowledge, then even if ghosts and spirits come after you they will stop; how much the more will people!" 3 - On Detaching from the Mind and Body Yen Hui spoke to Confucius, "I am getting on." "How so?" asked the latter. "I have got rid of charity and duty," replied the former. "Very good," replied Confucius, "but not quite perfect." Another day, Yen Hui met Confucius and said, "I am getting on." "How so?" "I have got rid of ceremonies and music," answered Yen Hui. "Very good," said Confucius, "but not quite perfect." Another day, Yen Hui again met Confucius and said, "I am getting on." "How so?" "I can forget myself while sitting," replied Yen Hui. "What do you mean by that?" said Confucius, changing his countenance. "I have freed myself from my body," answered Yen Hui. I have discarded my reasoning powers. And by thus getting rid of my body and mind, I have become One with the Infinite. This is what I mean by forgetting myself while sitting." (N.B. This practice is taught in Hexagram 52.) "If you have become One," said Confucius, "there can be no room for bias. If you have lost yourself, there can be no more hindrance. Perhaps you are really a wise one. I trust to be allowed to follow in your steps." EDITED:- P.S. I've edited this post to change the short stories of Chuang Tzu. In the original post, all 3 stories were taken from the James Legge translation, but as I was not totally satisfied with it, I've replaced 2 of the 3 stories with the Thomas Cleary translation. I would have changed all 3, but could not find Cleary's translation of the 3rd story online; nor is it to be found in any of his books currently in my possession! On the other hand, I have removed as many motions that I have because I felt it was a better way for me to go. Knowing that someone else has also done this leaves me feeling pleased. As far as I can remember, his criteria for eliminating certain things was entirely determined by their practical effectiveness in free-style application. However, as far as I could tell, the forms themselves were left largely intact, though he did make minor adjustments to them over the years. I believe some of things he eliminated from the free-style application of the art were retained in the forms for future reference by future generations. Uh…I don’t quite know how to say this, so please don’t take offense, but I don’t actually follow the I Ching. I know what it is at a rudimentary level but that is about it. Well, I kind'a suspected that, and that's partially why I have posted a lot about it, to try and give readers here who are unfamiliar with it a little feeling for what they can expect to find in it. But, it's never too late to learn more about it. Seriously, though, you might not study the written text, but everyone studies the unwritten text, whether they like or not: "That which lets now the dark, now the light appear is tao. As continuer, it is good. As completer, it is the essence. The kind man discovers it and calls it kind. The wise man discovers it and calls it wise. The people use it day by day and are not aware of it, for the way of the superior man is rare." ( 'The Treatise', I Ching, p. 297-298 ) In the Treatise section of it, which basically forms a commentary on the philosophical system expounded in the Hexagrams, it's stated that the I Ching is merely a reproduction of the natural laws contained within man's subconscious mind. Because of this, Carl Jung, the great psychologist of recent time, employed it as a tool in his own therapy practice to access the subconscious mind of his patients. At any rate, if you ever decide to give it a closer look, you have to be careful about which version(s) to work with. There's many, many more versions available today than ever before, and they're not of equal quality. Along with the Wilhelm/Baynes edition, I'd recommend these other following versions:- 01 - The Classic of Changes: A New Translation as Interpreted by Wang Bi http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Changes-Translation-Interpreted-Translations/dp/0231082959/sr=1-2/qid=1160172152/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-6782394-2006441?ie=UTF8&s=books 02 - The Tao of Organization: A Sung Dynasty Interpretation by Master Cheng Yi, a Neo-Confucian Sage (Paperback) http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Organization-Dynamics-Shambhala-Editions/dp/1570620865/sr=1-54/qid=1160169070/ref=sr_1_54/002-6782394-2006441?ie=UTF8&s=books 03 - Classics of Buddhism and Zen, Vol. 5 - Includes a Full-Length Trans. of the Buddhist I Ching http://www.amazon.com/Classics-Buddhism-Zen-Collected-Translations/dp/1590302222/sr=1-4/qid=1160171864/ref=sr_1_4/002-6782394-2006441?ie=UTF8&s=books 04 - The Taoist Classics, Volume 4: The Taoist I Ching with a Treatise on I Ching Mandalas (Hardcover) http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Classics-Ching-Mandalas/dp/1570624887/sr=1-79/qid=1160169599/ref=sr_1_79/002-6782394-2006441?ie=UTF8&s=books 05 - The Complete I Ching: The Definitive Translation by the Taoist Master Alfred Huang (Hardcover) http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Ching-Definitive-Translation-Alfred/dp/0892816562/sr=1-3/qid=1160167678/ref=pd_bbs_3/002-6782394-2006441?ie=UTF8&s=books 06 - I Ching: The Book of Changes and the Unchanging Truth (Hardcover) http://www.amazon.com/Ching-Book-Changes-Unchanging-Truth/dp/0937064815/sr=1-14/qid=1160168015/ref=sr_1_14/002-6782394-2006441?ie=UTF8&s=books 07 - The Tao of the I Ching: The Way to Divination (Paperback) http://www.amazon.com/Tao-I-Ching-Way-Divination/dp/0804814236/sr=1-38/qid=1160168755/ref=sr_1_38/002-6782394-2006441?ie=UTF8&s=books 08 - The Living I Ching (Paperback) http://www.amazon.com/Living-Ching-Ancient-Chinese-Wisdom/dp/0060850027/sr=1-10/qid=1160167678/ref=sr_1_10/002-6782394-2006441?ie=UTF8&s=books When he was in Edmonton, Mr. Leishman did not talk of the I Ching (just so you know). I very much appreciate this information. He never really spoke to me about how he first came to acquire an interest in it, though he did mention on a couple occasions that he use to study it as part of a group of other martial artists. I just assumed at the time it was with the other black belts at Simon's Studio(s). I know for a fact that Simon is very well versed in it. It comes out in almost everything he says and does. But anyone unfamiliar with the text would never realize this. Did Master McAndrews ever have a copy of it kicking around his office, that you can remember? p.s,. This is a bit off topic but since you finished your post with a comment about dim mak, I thought you might enjoy this :-D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ&mode=related&search= I enjoyed that immensely! Thanks. Here's a few others that I just discovered this morning. Some very interesting viewing here, to say the very least!! 1 - Unbelievable Chi-Kung http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruB0yghbcUY 2 - Acupuncturist's Chi Powers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmGGvBZGAhY&mode=related&search= 3 - Master Young's Chi powers (1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i096Zq2RQT8&mode=related&search= 4 - Master Young's Chi powers (2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3psYEPYaBo&mode=related&search= 5 - Master Young's Chi powers (3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dZ6yLod5Eg&mode=related&search= 6 - More Ki (Chi) Projection http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPpwcPqpgp8&NR

Hello Yen Hui, You posted, “Incidentally, I wonder if there's any connection between Huo Yuanjia's 'Jinwu Sports Federation of China' and Grandmaster Stan Lee's 'Ging Wu Association' ( @ http://www.gingwu.com/founder.asp) of Alberta, Canada?” I don’t know but you might send an email or personal message to Sifu Shawn and he may know how to find out. As for that photo, I think that too much is made of it. I don’t think that there are many photos of GMSL that show his face and him in action. But what I really see is this. Olaf and Stan in the mid 1960’s were friendly rivals. Both starting off their careers far from the rest of the martial arts community. Stan starts in 69 and then is not heard from until 92. Olaf goes on…well you know what happens with him. Now it is over a decade since GMSL has passed on and his school has passed to his successors. Olaf’s school has also passed on to his successors. Maybe all sides are just trying to move on. About Jet Li and his retirement: I won’t believe it until I see he is dead. No disrespect is intended but I’m an avid movie goer. And an action star is usually an action star because they are GOOD at that. I’ve seen more than one try for “serious “drama only to go back to what they know best, action. I tell you what I would like to see him do next. I’d like to see him play a martial arts teacher who is that; a teacher. Let him hand the crown to a younger star. Let him remake himself as the teacher who can still fight. But isn’t fighting in every scene he is in. You posted, “The point I think Leishman was trying to make was that the fist-art is not an end in itself, …” It is with Respect that I think I understand what you and Mr. Leishman are saying. About the fist-art not being an end in itself. It is with Respect that I disagree. For me the fist-art is an end in itself. You posted, “And what prevents us from being able to achieve this high goal, in most cases, according to Mr. Leishman, is our ego and emotions” I, on the other hand, believe something quite different. I believe it is our ego and ambitions that prompt us to pick and try for goals we feel are important to us, be they “higher” ones or not. You posted, “One does'nt need to learn a dozen different styles to reach this point of departure and release.” On that we can agree. You go on to talk about so-called “golden boys”. I have been privileged to have met some and it is true that they do possess certain gifts. But in the end, what we do with what we have is what marks us as successful or not. There are golden boys who are successful. Just as there are not-so-golden boys/girls who make it on sheer desire and determination. Both have their place. (How can you tell I’m a not-so-golden one.) :-D You talked about my pivotal matches. There is an old saw about when the teacher is ready, the student appears and vis versa. That is the case when I went against Wayne. I was up and ready. It just didn’t get any better for me at that point. And he handed me my head. I wasn’t the sharpest tool in the shed. But I could (and did) recognized a tool that was sharper. He helped me to sharpen up. At that point, it was what I wanted. When K.R. came at me, he had no real animosity towards me. But he was unpredictable and physically dangerous. I reacted to his kick as I did because my life was endangered. I bear him no malice, in point, I learned I could stop a real kick to my temple that day. It was a lesson well remembered. You posted, “As far as I can remember, his criteria for eliminating certain things was entirely determined by their practical effectiveness in free-style application. However, as far as I could tell, the forms themselves were left largely intact, though he did make minor adjustments to them over the years. I believe some of things he eliminated from the free-style application of the art were retained in the forms for future reference by future generations.” Yeah, that would most definitely apply to me as well. You posted, “Seriously, though, you might not study the written text, but everyone studies the unwritten text, whether they like or not” Again I would mot certainly agree with you there, too. You posted, “He never really spoke to me about how he first came to acquire an interest in it, though he did mention on a couple occasions that he use to study it as part of a group of other martial artists. I just assumed at the time it was with the other black belts at Simon's Studio(s).” Uh…No! I’d have to say that wherever he started studying it, it wasn’t at Simon’s. (This is to the best of my knowledge.) First, there were no other black belts around regularly. Outside of Phillip McAndrews they did not come to train. And to the best of my knowledge, there were no copies of the I Ching around the studio. This is the first I have heard of the Simon’s been well versed in this. I am glad that you enjoyed those vids. I must say that the vids you showed me in return were nothing short of amazing! Anyway, it is now after 5 am, and I’m off. So I’ll talk to you later. Regards, MrE2Me2

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