The Pitch
The Pitch We have all complained about Olaf . We have all said that his bad business model had to go. We have all said that his “Tales of Olaf” are not okay. We talk about the art on several other threads here. We talk about the bad old days and bad business practices. We call into question the “Tales”. But we do not seem to talk at all about the pitch we currently use. We have several but we don’t talk about any off them.. Wiki defines pitch as an effort to promote something. It also defines an elevator pitch as a short sales pitch (about 30 seconds). We, the students of Moh seem to have neither, any more. Nowadays, we practice but we don’t promote. That is, we don’t promote like we used to nor have we replaced it. This thread is dedicated towards promoting an honest pitch here. I believe in Moh and I believe that a proper pitch is necessary. And to that end, I’m asking for your input, especially the senior people here. Regards, MrE2Me2

MrE2Me2, First of all who do you consider senior disciples?? Because it looks to me like there is only a few people who are really trying to promote moo kempo in a positive light.. The first thing I would suggest, find a group of people who have a common bond. The perpetuation of Moo (Moh) kempo. People who want to see the art promoted in a positive light. There is absolutley nothing wrong with a renegade faction of people who want to promote the art without all the B.S. It would not be that hard to share information on techniques and such and have group of people all working for a common purpose. Without a few people standing firm, sticking up firmly for the art, a pitch of any sort wont do you any good. shawn

The Pitch 2
Hello Sifu Shawn, Thank you for taking the time to respond. (In answer to your question about senior disciples: Actually, that was a ploy to get feedback but don’t tell anyone.) ;-D What you posted made a lot of sense. I think we have the beginnings of just such a group here. It is my intension to brainstorm here with you guys (and gals if there be any). I think Moh is a very exciting and dynamic art. But we have a lot of bad P.R. to overcome here. And the best way to overcome bad P.R. is with an honest pitch and some guts. To start with, I intend to draw comparisons from various martial arts. For instance, tonight it is Ed Parker, Ed Parker’s system of Kenpo has a wonderful pitch. He called it a Sophisticated Martial Art. Over the years he developed it and it progressively grew. Even now, 16 years after his death, he is still revered. Here he is giving a short video on “Sophisticated Basics”. http://ikenpo.com/at_the_movies.html Ed Parker uses terms like “The Logic of Kenpo” and “Vocabulary of Motion”. He was described as a “Magician of Motion” instead of Master. He gave an interview in which he called himself “a rebel” and “misfit”. Here is a link http://www.usadojo.com/articles/magician-motion.htm I even found a vintage clip of one of his commercials from decades ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGlboCfVzVc&mode=related&search= There are serious disagreements among his senior black belts. Yet it is very difficult to find out more than rumors. So what we have is a spectacular sales pitch. This is promoted by skokum guys who really believe in their art. His version of Kenpo is noted for its use of scenarios, called “Self Defense Techniques”. His version of Kenpo changed and grew whenever he came up with a new idea. He wasn’t the least bit shy about it, either. But, There is a least one member of this forum who taught American Kenpo. And this, as well; I once talked to B.K., a Moh Black Belt who saw these guys training. He said they were no different than us on the mat. Regards, MrE2Me2

Mr E2Me2, I would like to start a ball rolling. I propose an alliance. We are all, and I think should remain, individuals. However we could have a list of people who would be a part of a Moo kempo alliance. I think that it should be done strictly to perpetuate the art itself however. The alliance( as a body) would not have the right to promote anybody, that way noone is above or below anybody else within the alliance. However each of us would continue to run our respective clubs as we have all along. no business dealings what so ever. that eliminates one problem right there. We, as a group would A. support other clubs or instructors within the alliance B. if students are on business trips or vacations, we could hitch them up with other members of the alliance, for a place to train, while on vacation. C. allow, expect, and respect that there will be slight differences in each members expression of the art due to it being taught at different times by different instructors in the past. ( There is really no way of totally standardizing it) D. GM Simon would be held in high regard, strictly as being the Master of the system. We would accept that there has been no successor chosen, and that is fine as we are not a member of his organization. His abilities would be recognized and thats it. We would not engage in negative talks about him, because we do not care to. We are about the art itself plain and simple. See I firmly beleive that if anyone wants to be known as the head of something like lets say a proposed alliance, then they have a hidden agenda. No grand Pu Bahs.. Now of course this is just my ramblings, and I am just trying to plant a seed, to start something growing.. shawn

All very interesting. I like the concept in principle. Not to let the cart get before the horse, I have one issue and one comment with what is already proposed: D. GM Simon would be held in high regard, strictly as being the Master of the system. We would accept that there has been no successor chosen, and that is fine as we are not a member of his organization. His abilities would be recognized and thats it. We would not engage in negative talks about him, because we do not care to. We are about the art itself plain and simple. Although I am not totally opposed to the idea of burying my own hatchet, this is much easier said than done, particularly for those of us who had direct dealings with him. I respect his skill as a MA , but that's about it. I don't even want to get into it, very complicated issue here, best to leave it alone for now... The alliance( as a body) would not have the right to promote anybody, that way noone is above or below anybody else within the alliance. However each of us would continue to run our respective clubs as we have all along. no business dealings what so ever... See I firmly beleive that if anyone wants to be known as the head of something like lets say a proposed alliance, then they have a hidden agenda. No grand Pu Bahs.. Short term this can easily work, but there are pitfalls that must be avoided. Just look at any MA "alliances" of the past... That being said I think this is a great idea, if we can get it to work...

Sifu Shawn and Grasshopper, I am in! The students of Mo Unite! That being the proposal, I believe that it will be much easier said than done. I also think we absolutely need to keep this forum as wide open as possible. Anyone who wants to join can join. Alliance members can be forum members or not. But forum members do not have to be alliance members. Sifu Shawn has “planted the seed” with some basic concepts here. I think that the alliance ideals would be an excellent place to continue. I also think that a flexible set of rules regarding the Simon’s should be spelled out. No trash talk but serious questions will and should be asked. Hey, we don’t have the answers and it is unlikely that they will ever be answered. But there should be no harm in asking. As long as asking doesn’t interfere with training, it has a valid place (imho). What next? Regards, MrE2Me2

Grasshopper, How are ya? In regards to the proposed alliance, when I stated that the alliance body would not have the right to promote anybody you stated Short term this can easily work, but there are pitfalls that must be avoided. Just look at any MA "alliances" of the past... I would like you to explain which pitfalls you refer. Because I agree absolutely that if there is a huge pitfall that a proposed alliance could encounter I would be interested in what it or they may be. You also went on to say Although I am not totally opposed to the idea of burying my own hatchet, this is much easier said than done, particularly for those of us who had direct dealings with him. I respect his skill as a MA , but that's about it. I don't even want to get into it, very complicated issue here, best to leave it alone for now Unfortunatley GM Simon wronged a lot of people, my teacher included. And that was back in the 1970's. Simon just up and terminated two of its best instructors over money. However, Sifu Ed( my teacher) does not let that get in the way of the art, nor does he let it take away from the things GM Simon was capable of physically. he was there to watch GM Simon and Master Higgs spar, and do demos together. He knows what was capable of and he gives him credit for that. However having said all that, I am not proposing we openly, dumbly and blindly defend every aspect of Simons personal character. My Mom used to have a saying when I was growing up, it went like this. " If you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all." Thats where I am at with it. All I am saying, and i think Mr E2Me2 is trying to say the same thing, there is a lot of bad PR to over come. So lets not engage in the negative. Here is where I sit on this. I train a MMA system. some traditional arts, some combat sport, some street oriented, some blade,blah , blah , blah. I do like training Moo kempo. some of our students show an interest in that art, so i teach them what I know of it, and continue to learn of it what I can from Sifu Ed or other sources when possible. To me an alliance is talking to and possibly coordinating on a freindly level with other people of the same opinion, and who wish for the same as me. Lets, for argument sake, say Mr E2Me2 and myself formed an "alliance". If other people come aboard then dont like something and they split, what happens? At worst the Moo kempo alliance becomes a divided camp. have a look around, thats what we have already. So in my mind nothing has changed (exept i still have a freindly alliance with MrE2Me2). Do you see what I am saying? All I want to do is continue training the way I have been, and know there is slowly a group of people who are trying to promote one of the arts I love training. I dont see anything bad coming out of it. Just imagine, if a few people stick together, we might get a few more people who are maybe able to look a little beyond the bad business practice and look at the art. I mean hey, you GRASSHOPPER, have done a good job of designing a fair site about Moo Kempo and gm Simon. Its objective not cruel. So I see at least 3 of us that are on a similar wave length and there are a couple others on this site also I think. anyway, enough of my babble. Bye for now. shawn

Sifu Shawn, I think I am on the same page with you here. Regards, MrE2Me2

I would like you to explain which pitfalls you refer. Because I agree absolutely that if there is a huge pitfall that a proposed alliance could encounter I would be interested in what it or they may be. Hi Fellas, I think we are on the same page as well. If we do keep the "alliance" completely seperate from any business aspects of running a school and promoting belts then most "pitfalls" would be avoided. But with any organization usually there is some sort of hierarchy, it is difficult for everyone to be considered 'equals" as that is just not the case. Some will invest more time (and money) into this then others, usually there is a leader or "President" of the organization no matter how small it is, with that comes responsability, power, pitfalls... If we can somehow avoid this, or accept this then it will all be good. I do not mind if there is a hiearchy within the alliance, so long as ther people don't mind it either. Again I am getting the cart before the horse here but you see what I mean. Becasue I do not own/ run a MA studio or teach full time as well as having a different careeer which takes a lot of my time, my level of involvement in the associatiion would not be a large as others (like you two) so you could call me a "junior" partner in the alliance. You guys can work out the details, I will be happy to participate I will go with the flow...

The Next Evolution
To all, Grasshopper started this forum for a reason. I look at it this way. This forum is part of a solution to the problems that plague the students of Mo. I do not happen to believe that these problems are going to go away soon or easily. And shutting off the computer and leaving isn’t the answer either. Nor am I convinced that logic and willpower alone will heal these wounds. (Although time does, indeed, wound all heels.) I am of the opinion that asking hard questions and telling plain answers will help. And yes, I am aware that many questions will never be answered. That doesn’t mean they should not be asked. I have taken part of his post on another forum with his permission. In part, here it is. Grasshopper has stated the following, “My goal is also not to totally discredit Olaf Simon’s accomplishments, but to wipe away much of the facade and try to find some truth. “ I think he speaks for several of us here. He has been in contact with Geof Crossman and DJ Swanstrom. “I have called TKF. I have spoken to Geoff once and DJ three times in total” That would be a first for TKF (as far as I know). Grasshopper mirrors my own feelings in this quote, “Master Simon is not alone in the MA world for embellishing facts and details of his MA history to give himself more authenticity. There is rampant abuse of this all over the map. However here we are talking about Olaf so he is under OUR microscope...” I have noticed that the anti-tkfers are real tough on Olaf now that he is 80 years old. Nor is his age an excuse for what he did. Grasshopper has also stated, “I don't have a problem with him using the name "White Tiger" for his style. I enjoy and maintain my Pai Hu Shih knowledge... yadda yadda yadda. “ Both Sifu Shawn and I practice an art that has tremendous Mo Kempo influence. He comments on his own experiences here: “I don't know for sure, but based on my own personal experience (6 years training TKF White Tiger as a TKF Supervisor), and the knowledge and experience of others (Like R. Shergold - I have spoken to him half a dozen times), I personally feel that GMS White Tiger style is really a mix of advanced Ed Parker Kempo with pieces of Kung Fu mixed in... “ I believe that most of us are quite experienced in the martial arts. A quote of his, ”My opinion is more educated now and obviously has changed, Although I don't think you could call me either a TKF supporter or hater, I am something different... “ Grasshopper may be something different but so are several of us. We are for the art of Mo We represent The Next Evolution. Regards, Mre2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

MrE2Me2, We are for the art of Mo We represent The Next Evolution. I like that a lot. The next evolution of moo............... That is what we represent isn't it. sifu shawn

Hello Sifu Shawn. Thanks! I do believe that you, I and Grasshopper are some of the people who represent this. We represent The Next Evolution of those who study Mo. How it grows and where it leads us will be up to us, now. This should be very interesting. Regards, MrE2Me2

I would be most interested in how Grasshopper will try to combine Moh with Xing yi. The stepping would be of particular interest! :D

To all, Examples of Xingyi footwork. Combat application http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrF6VYd1oWA A little faster but you gotta wait for it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwQ4fYhIOPA&mode=related&search= Actually Cam, it doesn’t look incompatible with Mo. Light, quick and balanced. Regards, MrE2Me2