"Interesting results, though I would hardly call that a scientific study." - Cam "This show attempts to put a scientific spin on martial arts by quantifying various moves." - TKF_PHS I never said it was a scientific study. "I am also saddened that there were no taiji or more importantly no xing-yi participants to that "scientific"study. " - Cam Not too many people has even heard of them. Also, in the fight world there are no representatives of those two styles. I am not saying that it is a bad style, just that in the Western world there are no proven fighters represented. "When I see comments like, "arm only punch" or arm only anything I can pnly come to the conclusion that you have no idea about power generation, at least in how the internal styles generate power. " - Cam You are right I don't know anything about internal styles. If more fights were won in any type of martial sport (boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, Pankration, Judo, Kyokushin Karate, San Shou Kung Fu, MMA etc) then I might explore it. In fact, if there is an example of one knockout using a punch from an internal style I would love to see it. As it stands now, I am quite ignorant when it comes to Internal punches/philosophies. "why would sprinters use such a device if they could generate more power from being on the ball of their back foot?" - Cam Following the same line of thinking then why don't sprinters just run with their heels down? I spoke to my kinesiologist, PhD Candidate (which means he is completing his third year of a four year program), martial arts student and he said (I will paraphrase) that when the heel is planted down it produces power in a mainly vertical fashion. To apply power in a forward motion then the most optimum position would be with the heel up. When trying to generate power with the rear arm in a forward motion then the rear leg should have the the heel up. The best examples of these are: 1. The boxers rear cross or AKA reverse punch. 2. Baseball batter home run. All the professionals hit with the rear foot up. When swinging the bat most of the power is actually derived from the legs pushing against the ground. The most powerful strike/swing is done by pushing against the ground and into the hips (when twisting will add more power) and into the arms. This is called kinetic linking. As I was told, the reason why sprinters derive power from the starting blocks, using the whole surface of the foot, is because the way their bodies are hunched over on the tracks it is very similar to a vertical acceleration. Instead of creating horizontal velocity during the drive phase, they are instead trying to keep their feet underneath them to avoid falling forward. Only after a few strides does it change to a purely forward motion. This is easily seen with 100m sprinters. These sprinters do not actually achieve a vertical stance until a significant amount of steps out of the starting blocks.

To all, I found a video on full contact Kyokushinkai Tournament knockouts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3DqMBrUBDk&mode=related&search= They don’t seem to be interested in blocking or repositioning at all. Whether the heel is up or down is not real relevant here. Here is one on how they train for this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKC58_BP30I&mode=related&search= Martial art and science seem to have given way to who can take the hardest punch. And then who can give one back. Now before you say anything, look at the training on these 2 videos (of internal styles). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4El4ea4hTak&mode=related&search= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz94wiwx2hI And here is one of a free sparring drill featuring a girl with only 3 months training. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqH8Pl-4ieg&mode=related&search= Why bring this up? Look at another internal stylist and watch his feet (on this uneven surface). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcYHVQKQAMo Regards, MrE2Me2

Thanks TKF_PHS, you have actually said that we are both correct! I spoke to my kinesiologist, PhD Candidate (which means he is completing his third year of a four year program), martial arts student and he said (I will paraphrase) that when the heel is planted down it produces power in a mainly vertical fashion. To apply power in a forward motion then the most optimum position would be with the heel up. When trying to generate power with the rear arm in a forward motion A vertical fashion, I take it to mean a balanced position, no horizontal force! While forward motion denotes just that, forward motion, an unbalanced position usually to be followed by another step. It seems to reveal a rather aggressive approach, strike and step forward quickly, not allowing your opponent time to set up a defence or offense. If done properly a very effective strategy. I would say not a very traditional approach but I am not fully versed in the traditional so I won't say it! Now TKF_PHS I mean no offense but I get the idea that the word "traditional" is generally a dirty word when it comes to MMA. MMA is just that, a mixing of varied fighting systems, chosen by the individual to make them the utmost fighter. What new styles or ways of thinking have been introduced into the MMA mix as of late? When the Gracie's first introduced this new format he overwhelmed everyone with the now famous BJJ. Now BJJ is old, almost traditional, so new ways of thinking had to be introduced. Maybe one day a new fighter with a xing-yi or kuntao approach will enter MMA, maybe they will overwhelm everyone with a new innovative approach, then they will be quickly copied no doubt. Maybe! One thing I would bet my money on though, those who are truly innovative usually prevail while the rest are followers.

Opps, missed part of the quote in my previous message...me computer dummy :?

"Maybe one day a new fighter with a xing-yi or kuntao approach will enter MMA, maybe they will overwhelm everyone with a new innovative approach, then they will be quickly copied no doubt. Maybe! " - cam Well, that would be an exciting day in the martial arts world. Sometimes I get tired of the MMA guys saying they will kill every traditional style that comes their way. Now, the top guys certainly do not say it (might hurt a potentially lucrative contract) but I have had the opportunity to train at some of the schools that UFC fighters have opened up. There are a lot of humble instructors but the lower and mid level fighters seem to be real cocky. The only exception being the Gracie School. Very humble all around and a fantastic atmosphere. Very laid back.

That's really great to hear, thanks TKF_PHS! Gad I was wrong about that! Here's a link to Tim Cartmell's site. Tim is considered to be a no-nosense approach kind of guy. He has learned taiji, bagua and xing-yi, recently I believe he has been taking lessons with the Gracie family. I think you might like the philosophy of xing-yi, if you give it a read let me know! http://www.shenwu.com/hsingi.htm

To all, I’m still fumbling around with this camera but its coming (if ever so slowly). None the less, here are four more short vids. This is a solo vid showing a drill from the “Training Tips” thread. High Low Centre http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrUAKmCVwKM Here is a basic striking demo by my student. Jason punches http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlUqHzx2lIY The next two are really quite deceptive. You may have to watch them a couple of times before you get it. What you can’t see is that if Jason misses a block to the body, I’ll hit him (Hard). Here is an unrehearsed blocking drill. Unrehearsed drill 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-VcwFp7Xz8 And another. Unrehearsed drill2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8PeF0L_Fgw When he watched these on the screen after class, he was surprised. The blocks he used looked light and ineffectual. In point of fact, they hit my arms hard and kept him safe. There were even a couple of times when he had me cold on the counter attack. Regards, MrE2Me2

To all, I have noticed a terrible lack on the net. Everywhere there are vids of Martial Arts of every description. Yet there are few vids of Mo. I have decided to help change this. Due to foreseen but ignored circumstances, I am unable to practice as I once did. Today, the version of Mo that I practice is called K.I.S.A.E. So you might say this is a “Simple and Effective” version of the art I learned. Here are a few segments from a private lesson with one of my students. These are all block and counter drills. They are unrehearsed and all 9 of them took less than 10 minutes in total, to film. One against a lunging thrust. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXPMk2dtO-w Practicing a heel thrust to the body. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EHFjyfoDcM The heel thrust as one possible counter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0ets_OtK-0 Against a pad is different. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEyqLCbbbuo Finding out what works after 14 hours. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBQCg-2m46w Against the wall time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyNmW10ShSg Coming slowly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx-m-l7GsBE Drilling for the core. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kusUhZL_ShM Confidence building where blocks are concerned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2gFf3kmgiI When my camera woman gets more time, I’ll have more vids. As I work more in front of the camera, I’ll get better at producing them. (Just let me continue to fumble a bit.) Regards, MrE2Me2

Mr E2me2 , how are ya? I was checking out your vids. I like the floating block w/spinning back kick counter to the roundhouse kick, its one of my favorite techniques. I am also partial to the floating block w/ back fist or knife hand counter as well. The shin bone can be so sensitive. If a moo stylist has very conditioned forearms, you can cut right into the shin bone with that floating block, and have him hurting from the block, and then the counter attack is the coup de grace. I also like the way you block. I prefer less body movement to the combative blocks as well. It does not take a lot of power to redirect an attack , especially a linear one. Hook punches can be a bit different to contend with with, but I find if you can hit the bicep while blocking a hook punch, it can be very effective with minimal body movement. However, In the shotokan style I train, upper body torque is like "madatory" for blocking and striking. sifu shawn

Hello Sifu Shawn, I’m doin fine! You read like you’re havin a great night. Thanks for your kind words about the vids. I’m finding that I am changing the way I make them. I decide well ahead of time and tell my camera woman what to look for. Or if I just ask her to film away and then forget about the camera. These ideas work better. Originally I tried to do it all and it’s just not as interesting a vid. About Mo blocks: Yep! Done right and they hurt worse than a pay cut at Christmas. There have been times when I’ve taken the fight right out someone with one. Maybe it’s because they’re so quick and easy to apply. A flicker and I’m safe and in a dandy position to counter. (As you pointed out.) When I was younger I smashed up my shins pretty bad. So I know how painful that can be. Usually when I block hook punches I use an inside to the side block. If it is low I’ll use a diagonal downward block (out of KempoII). Uppercuts are another matter though. Sometimes a pressing forearm block will work. Other times a modified forearm block or a mantis hook will do the trick. But these don’t hurt my opponent either. About “mandatory” body torque: Yes, I’ve been there too. It is almost as if every move has to be the big bomb or it has no value. Maybe it is a matter of blind tradition. I don’t know. I do know that Shotokan is where I originally learned my basic blocks. They felt good in solo practice but I couldn’t use them. (They were just too slow.) Not until I relearned them from scratch, at Brown, was I able to apply them. I’ll have some more vids in a couple of days. Regards, MrE2Me2

To all, Well, I’m taking more (but not necessarily better) vids. Here are a few. Floating block with slide in counter kick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF-YhJGObA4 Floating block with spin kick counter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSkhArvi6so Some that are a little more basic. A #1 knifehand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLebWvV8p-I A thrust punch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmwjJ4yH5Os Practicing kicks. The roundhouse into a pad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dYVkr_5GnQ Combination kick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tcw2DwshHfc Regards, MrE2Me2

To all, Here are some more vids. The Seven Knifehands of Mo Kempo, limb alone and body braced http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=094CQwESiB4 The Seven Knifehands of Mo Kempo with hip torque http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKyX72Hnayg The Seven Elbows of Mo Kempo done slowly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4PsTJ6iZNU The Seven Elbows of Mo Kempo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sydPsZcWzVA Regards, MrE2Me2

I just read this thread start to finnish. Wow, lol too many posts to comment on. I will give my impressions on the themes of the thread. 1- the heel, up or down? I felt like i was reading alot of posts arguing about something that is incomplete in all arguements. Cam mentioned once about the Tai Chi saying foot, knee, hip, etc out the arm. That was the closest I saw to what I utilize. Silk reeling energy. This ties into the knee pointing in the same direction as the foot. Unfortunately I have to say they must part directions often in the course of proper technique. The heel lifts, but is should not be alone, both legs should have the heel lifting. this is only for a fraction of a second while they generate a twsit that travels up both legs. Both knees swirl, the hips take this twist and continue building it into a higher momentum, the waist and torso twist, the opposite shoulder to the striking arm drops and pulls more momentum into the twist and then it corkscrews out the striking arm. This all happens in an instant but takes a great deal fo time to develope properly. At the moment of contact with your opponant the heels should be on the ground the rear leg locked out, snapping into this position in recoil reaction to the strike. This is a proper Kung Fu punch. To describe it another way that might help some, imagine the rolled up "rattail" wet towel in the locker room. It flicks out and snaps with great force even though it is a wet cloth. The only way to generate this power is with the pullback of the towel at the key moment. That pullback is similar to the heel snapping back down into position after a strike. Every part of the chain of winding motions has to return to it's original state after the "wave" has passed through it. An olympic sprinter cannot be used as an example because sprinting is an entirly different goal and motion. Propelling the entire torso forward is not the same as using the body to whip out a limb. I like to practice punching while I am sprinting in a short distance as I juggle a different problem. Power generation from a standstill is easy once you develope silk reeling energy, however I never wish to remain in a standing position. Stand and you will be overwhelmed by multiple attackers. I also do not face off with single attackers but instead move to get behind them/ turn them so that I can attack from the safety of that spacial relation to the opponant. Generating a powerful punch while in rapid movement is a different monkey though so I will leave that out of this talk. The vids are great, the comparison of blocking at the start of the thread was nice. The initial Kenpo instructor seemed to be focused on instructing with a relaxed yet visible manor. MrE2Me2's blocks were crisper and showed more skill obviously. The difference between them I refer to as "teleporting fist." The arm moves from point A to point B not "As quickly as it can" but rather 'instantly and fluidly." Again i think of Cam's mention of "song" in another thread. One clip shows how to do something. Mre2me2 shows more of an end result of dedicated practice. the thing that concerned me far more in the intitial kenpo video was the instructors habit of looking at his blocking arm rather than through it. That is a white belt mistake! the sparring video was nice, and it represented a restricted space environment, however I would like to say that it somewhat accurately represented the way TKF sparring looks. The major flaw is the lack of mobility. in the same way that the arms must move so too must he torso move. "black" as we call him, mre2me2's senior student is wasting alot of power generation by not moving his 200 pound counterweight. Him. He has quick hands, but if he is going to stand in one spot he is going to need to be very fast the moment 2 people attack him. If you guys can find a clip of a video called "valleyvs4" it shows a skater fighting 4 guys. (I googled it and got a hit but didn't want to make a membership just to post the link, sorry.) All involved are untrained I assume, or not expertly trained anyhow. The skaters success is in his ability to continue to move away from the mob and focus on the individual. I am sure "black" has the ability to move and do the same, however it is like saying anyone can punch. To be truly great at it you have to practice. Anyhow, that's enough from me for now. I'm going to keep preaching "Fluidity of motion" ala "song" and "Continual movement while fighting." Think of it as an evolved form of "no stance remains the same." :)

Ahhh, you caught me North! Yes the knee does move, often, or always! It would be more accurate to say that the motion "orbits" around the set-point of the joint. Not so far as to collapse though. Remembering that the knee( and elbow) are hinge joints and a vary narrow range of rotational movement can be tolerated. Silk Reeling, well that's a work in progress for me, though actually that's what the form is, from start to finish, silk reeling! 8)

Very correct Cam :) i find the tolerance to rotational movement of the knee increases over time as the muscles around the joint become more flexible. I have heard rumors of Wushu students who took their flexability too far and have knees that slip out and dislocate. For now that is just rumor to me though as flexability = strength. I'm not pushing things too hard anyhow, just over extended periods for gradual improvement. Applications of the Tai Chi stepping (Heel toe, lean forward, lean back , twist foot inward and lean forward again) are amazingly brutal once you get the strength and flexability of the knee doing good orbits. Hook behind a persons heel and orbit in with good pressure to break the opponants shin or knee. Because it is a mere step you can combine it with arm techniques. They may be able to block your arm attacks but to attack the leg break coming in at the same time as arm attacks is extremely hard. My senior student catches me with this combination from time to time. (More reason to keep moving! ;) ) If you can find a picture or source showing a shaolin crouching tiger stance it will help alot. It really works the flexability of every muscle on the outside of the leg below the kneecap. Great stance, and eventually one of the more useful as blends very well with the other stances.