The Controversial History of Moh

The Controversial History of Moh
To all, Now that there are just us adults here; I have some serious questions. Please keep in mind that I am NOT being sarcastic. It’s my opinion: While all of these questions have been answered, they have not been answered to my satisfaction. Or rather, there has been so much controversy that the answers are, sometimes, open to question. How many believe Olaf Simon’s childhood gardener was capable of passing on this art? What role did Japanese martial arts play in the formation of Moh (if any)? In essence: While the art of Moh is a very effective system of kung fu, how did it come into being? Was it Olaf Simon’s extension of the lessons passed on by the mysterious Fu Yen? Or was it mostly an art that came about because of what he and M. Hilbig collaborated on? Also: How many believe that it was strictly bad instructors which passed on bad material? What role did management have in the downfall of Temple (if any)? Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

I have some questions that relate or may effect the answers you get MrE: How many Chinese/Japanese people resided in Germany or Poland during Simon's childhood in the mid 40's? While your country is getting attacked or is being threatened of attack how many people during this time could afford a gardener? If you had a gardener employed to your household, how much time would you have them play with or train your children? Most masters who pass down martial arts have more than one student. Who else was trained by Fu Yen, and did Fu Yen ever speak of Simon to his other students? The old TKF (90's era) downfall in my experience was from both poorly trained instructor and business tactics. Also from my perception Moh Kempo is an combination from different styles with a strong base in karate could be partly from Ed Parker system. Moh Kempo is effective from the people who are dedicated themselves to the system and have evolved it such as yourself and many others in this forum who did not get poisoned from the "secretive society" aspects, and money grabbing tactics.

I think Olaf Simon wanted to run a martial arts school initially and Karate was as good as anything in his early stages of developing as a martial artist. I think as time passed he learned more and more Kung Fu and his style began to transform into a blend of Karate and Kung Fu. Eventually it became a new style of Kung Fu in essence. I honestly don't believe any of the Fu Yen stuff. I think it was just a convenient way to avoid questions in a time when information was harder to come by. Margitt Hilbig states in her book that he was an amateur boxer with "no martial arts experience." If he had trained complex Kung Fu as a child then I doubt the Karate magazines Margitte refered to would have been so awe inspiring. If he had Shaolin training I don't think he would have learned the concept of blocking and striking simultaneously from Bruce Lee. So even if he did have training as a child it was completely forgotten in order for him to have learned things at a later date as claimed in Margittes autobigraphy. I think learning to block and strike at the same time and other techniques picked up here and there all became part of the Moh style. The final result of TKF is the state Olaf managed to evolve his own personal style to before retiring. I would bet that there is more similarity to Karate in the style if you go further back in TKF's history. Why did the business fail? I actually don't think it's anyones fault in perticular. I think that a martial arts school is extremely difficult to run as a business if it is full time. Students come and go very frequently in the martial arts in North America. TKF was trying to provide a service that is just not in high demand. They paid their instructors what they could afford to pay them and stay in operation yet the instructors kept quitting because it's not enough money. Thus the quality of instruction declined each time a new trainee was getting his wings. Take this forum for example. It is not completely new, yet if you look at the posts, the actual life of this forum and go compare it to some other forums on the most silly of topics such as Teletubbies or whatever you will find that this is a low interest area. Most martial arts schools teach classes in the evening. Or do not teach private lessons. With the demand in our society as it is I think that is the only realistic way to do it. I am betting Swanstrom would have more to say on this than I do, but his post in another area made it seem more that it was the TKF reputation they couldn't overcome. I have seen a ton of schools of all types open and close. (Sometimes in the exact same building!) TKF had a very good way of overcoming the reality of this market by trying to get the money up front. If a student quit and bothered to ask for a refund they would get gouged severely. This tactic was highly criticised on the forums but really it's about financial survival. The Moh style can finally just be looked at for what it is. There are no TKF's so it cannot be overpriced. There is no underpaid instructors or high pressure sales because anyone learning this style now is doing so in a different environment. I think to heal the style and have people look at it for it's personal effectiveness it was something that had to happen. Remove the business from the style and people can look at it with less cloudy vision.

To all, First: Pak Sau, thank you for posting your questions. You have posted some great questions here. And I would have asked them as well (but you thought of them first). North, again, thank your for posting your opinions here. I think that the ideas in your post are correct, as well. It is interesting to be able to post about this stuff without having to fight about it. Interestingly enough, Moh is certainly not the only martial art that is filled with controversy. Tonight: This is the only forum on Moh that is still posting, that I know of. The art of Moh has some rather spectacular fighters and practitioners in it. Master Higgs was a legendary tournament competitor. There are guys like Sifu Shawn, who participated in 26 submission bouts. Then there is Sifu Sblano’s student who also won a full contact bout. Forum member SwollenKnuc has posted a vid of himself participating in another full contact bout. I have posted earlier about the achievements of Master Hilbig in the tournament ring. Mrs. Beckett was another tournament competitor who did well. This is to name but a few. Yet with all of this success, why is it so hard to get people to talk about their training? Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

"Yet with all of this success, why is it so hard to get people to talk about their training? " I view a messageboard as a place to socialize and share. My wife however NEVER posts on the forums she visits. She looks for information or reads about other people's experiences but has no desire to share her own. She likes cooking forums. She is a wicked good cook. Honestly she should be sharing tips on those furms but it's just not her character to do so. I guess alot of the people who visit this forum are more like her?

Hello North, You posted, “I view a messageboard as a place to socialize and share.” So do I. :-D I also do a lot of lurking at other forums that I go to. I have nothing against that and if others wish to lurk…that is great. What I do what, is for those who are hesitant to post but what to post, to quit hesitating. If someone has something they want to say, then I think they should come out and say it. But given our history or secrecy and paranoia, speaking out was frowned upon. I’m simply trying to promote the idea that speaking one’s mind is alright (as long as they’re courteous). You posted, “I guess alot of the people who visit this forum are more like her?” Yeah…and that isn’t such a bad thing either (in my opinion). Regards, MrE2Me2

To all, There have been allegations that we have strong ties to American Kenpo. Here is a list of American Kenpo’s Self Defense Techniques. They are taken from this website: http://www.bakerfamily4.net/kenpo/tech.htm Delayed Sword Lone Kimono Conquering Shield Spiraling Twig Aggressive Twins Crossing Talons Crossed Twigs Gripping Talon Sword Of Destruction Twirling Wings Grip Of Death Crushing Hammer Deflecting Hammer Scraping Hooves Crashing Wings Parting Wings Grasp Of Death Striking Serpents Head Circling Wing Shield & Sword Checking The Storm Thrusting Prongs Tripping Arrow Sleeper Gift Of Destruction Shielding Hammer Leaping Crane Five Swords Mace Of Aggression Reversing Mace Swinging Pendulum Retreating Pendulum Attacking Mace Buckling Branch Evading The Storm Defying The Storm Intellectual Departure Clutching Feathers Obscure Sword Charging Ram Triggered Salute Snapping Twig Darting Mace Glancing Salute Raining Claw Flight To Freedom Thrusting Salute Twisted Twig Locking Horns Obscure Wing Squeezing The Peach Bow Of Compulsion Spreading Branch Captured Leaves Obstructing The Storm Repeating Mace Calming The Storm Gift In Return Intermediate Techniques Glancing Spear Desperate Falcons Protecting Fans Obscure Claws Locked Wing Dominating Circles Unfurling Crane Cross Of Destruction Repeated Devastation Hooking Wings Defensive Cross Entangled Wing Destructive Twins Blinding Sacrifice Circling Fans Circling The Horizon Wings Of Silk Shield & Mace Snaking Talon Dance Of Death Thrusting Wedge Circles Of Protection Unwinding Pendulum Rotating Destruction Thundering Hammers Gathering Clouds Twirling Hammers Circling Destruction Brushing The Storm Destructive Kneel Prance Of The Tiger Backbreaker Flashing Wings Capturing The Storm Dance Of Darkness Securing The Storm Begging Hands Broken Ram Heavenly Ascent Falcons Of Force Raking Mace Menacing Twirl Escape From Death Taming The Mace Flashing Mace Gift Of Destiny Squatting Sacrifice Broken Gift Fallen Cross Twist Of Fate Grasping Eagles Intercepting The Ram Returning The Storm Escape From Darkness Encounter With Danger The Bear & The Ram Hugging Pendulum Deceptive Panther Circle Of Doom Courting The Tiger Twin Kimono Cross Of Death Kneel Of Compulsion The Ram & The Eagle Advanced Techniques Falling Falcon Clutching Feathers Ext. Reversing Mace Ext. Twirling Sacrifice Triggered Salute Ext. Buckling Branch Ext. Destructive Fans Dance Of Death Ext. Thrusting Prongs Ext. Clipping The Storm Gift Of Destruction Ext. Twisted Twig Ext. Raining Lance Locking Horns Ext. Obscure Sword Ext. Thrust Into Darkness Lone Kimono Ext. Repeating Mace Ext. Leap Of Death Glancing Salute Ext. Raining Claw Ext. Glancing Lance Five Swords Ext. Crashing Wings Ext. Captured Rod Scraping Hooves Ext. Captured Leaves Ext. Glancing Wing Grip Of Death Ext. Evading The Storm Ext. Thrusting Lance Crossing Talons Ext. Twirling Wings Ext. Broken Rod Shielding Hammer Ext. Snapping Twig Ext. Entwined Lance Thrusting Salute Ext. Leaping Crane Ext. Defying The Rod Striking Serpents Head Ext. Crushing Hammer Ext. Unfolding The Dark Locked Wing Ext. Circling Wing Ext. Fatal Deviation Obscure Wing Ext. Calming The Storm Ext. Twisted Rod Unfurling Lance Entwined Maces Clipping The Lance Detour From Doom Circling The Storm Leap From Danger Escape From The Storm Other Techniques Alternating Maces Captured Twigs Sword & Hammer Gathering The Snakes Parting Of The Snakes Snakes Of Wisdom Marriage Of The Rams Piercing Lance Circling Windmills Bowing To Buddha Reversing Circles Reprimanding The Bears Darting Leaves Fatal Cross How many do you know? Regards, MrE2Me2 Without Prejudice E&OE

Bwahahahahahahahahhaahhaahahahahhaahahahahahahahhahahaha. I know threm ALL. Every one. Plus more. Plus the Ext. (extensions). plus all 12 forms. & all sets. J.K. (lurking occasionally)

Hello TKFBS, Welcome back! You posted, “I know threm ALL. Every one. Plus more. Plus the Ext. (extensions). plus all 12 forms. & all sets.” Thank you for your response. On the subject of American Kenpo, I have some questions (If you don’t mind). :-D I’m not questioning your legitimacy here (because it isn’t my place). I’m asking for your expertise on this art I have not studied (but that you have). Did you learn on the 16 techniques per belt system of American Kenpo? Or did you learn on the 24 techniques pert belt system of American Kenpo? Or was it possibly the 32 techniques per belt system of American Kenpo? Also, did you sign a contract with the American Kenpo School you learned at? If so, then what kind was it; a one year or three year (or possibly something else)? Again, I’m asking to get a clearer view of an art that you obviously have great respect for. Do you train in American Kenpo today? Do you teach American Kenpo today? If so, do you use contracts today? Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Hello mystery dude. Thank-you for the welcome. I train the 24 technique system as in the LTKKA. I have defected to using the IKKA manual , the last version that SGM Parker wrote. And am currently working with that version. I have been training regularly w/ friends and would teach more if time allowed. Wazzzup with "contracts"? Do you mean payment contracts? Or something along the lines of the crazy stuff uncle Olly used make instructors sign?, Sincerely, Confused.

Mr E2Me2 What role did Japanese martial arts play in the formation of Moh (if any)? I believe that the japanese arts played a huge part in the development of Moo Kempo. I think that as time went on, the stories Simon weaved became greater and greater and, who knows, maybe he started to believe some of his own stories..... Or was it mostly an art that came about because of what he and M. Hilbig collaborated on? I also believe that a large portion of the Moo system was developed jointly between Master Hilbig, and Master Simon.. How many believe that it was strictly bad instructors which passed on bad material? This would be a question that has the answer within it.... Bad instructors definetly would pass material out badly.. But the good instructors such as Master Trevor Higgs put out phenomenal, tough, no nonsense fighters.... that cannot be denied. Any one who disputes that does not know Master Higgs and there fore I doubt really know all that much about the history of this art... What role did management have in the downfall of Temple (if any)? I cant speak from experience here, but I can say it was the business tactics and Management of TKF ( Simons Kung Fu Studios back in the day) that caused my instructor's split from Simons organization years ago. Pak Sau The old TKF (90's era) downfall in my experience was from both poorly trained instructor and business tactics. No disrespect meant here, but the 90s is not the "OLD ERA" NORTH The final result of TKF is the state Olaf managed to evolve his own personal style to before retiring. I would bet that there is more similarity to Karate in the style if you go further back in TKF's history. Most of us do express our arts slightly different and we are all evolving and changing just as Simon did.... I found your post that this quote came from to be very refreshing actually. I agree with almost everything you say there. Maybe I even I agree with all of it.. But stories can get bent out of shape. For example ( and more just to set the record straight for my own conscience, I would not want people to think something of me that is not true) It was said I have had 26 submission bouts that is not true.... I have competed in, and won in submission bouts, but not 26. My total fights in competition of all sorts, point fighting, continuous fighting, kickboxing, single stick, double stick, sword and dagger, and knife, and submission grappling would exede 26 for sure.I have been competing since 1984. But I dont have 26 submission bouts under my belt ... That would be sweet if I did.. Mr E2Me2, If somewhere along the way I said specifically 26 submission bouts, I apologize It would have been a Typing error. If you know which thread I said that on let me know so I can change it. Sifu Shawn

Hello TKFBS, You posted, “I train the 24 technique system as in the LTKKA. I have defected to using the IKKA manual , the last version that SGM Parker wrote. And am currently working with that version. I have been training regularly w/ friends and would teach more if time allowed.” With all due respect; You say you have “defected” to using the IKKA manual. In what ways is this different? I’m asking why you would use the idea of defecting. You asked, “Wazzzup with "contracts"? Do you mean payment contracts? Actually, I was here yesterday. http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=776018#post776018 There is an interesting discussion about payment contracts and martial arts studios happening. The ideas of a 1 year or a 3 year contract were only a couple of the things being discussed. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Hello Sifu Shawn, How ya been? You posted, “I believe that the japanese arts played a huge part in the development of Moo Kempo. I think that as time went on, the stories Simon weaved became greater and greater and, who knows, maybe he started to believe some of his own stories.....” I think there is a lot of truth in this, as well. In my opinion, it is time to tell our history without rancor and move on. (Well, sounds good in theory anyway.) :-D You posted, “I also believe that a large portion of the Moo system was developed jointly between Master Hilbig, and Master Simon..” I concur; I believe that this makes the most sense. (Nor does it diminish the art of Moh, in my eyes.) You posted, “No disrespect meant here, but the 90s is not the "OLD ERA"” L.O.L.! You posted, “It was said I have had 26 submission bouts that is not true....” Wups! My bad…it is I who am apologizing for my inaccuracy here. Your actual post is here from October 3 2006: http://templekungforum.14.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=82&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=3b7e395a2e0c995961ed58a2c97686fe Back then, in part, you posted, “…I teach kick boxing. I have fought in the ring, I have fought in submission grappling bouts. I hope to be in Manilla next fall in a full contact stick fighting tournament…” Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

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