MrE2Me2 minion Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 31 Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: Mr. E2Me2: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hello DaveS, I find this conversation very interesting but before we can continue it, I need some clarification, please. What is this term, “Pai Hu Shih”?" Pai Hui Shi (PHS) is another system Simon came up with to extract of money from the students. Typically a student won't get into PHS until they've been in kung fu club for 4-5 years. After they go through a very strange iniitiation cerimony they become part of the PHS club and switch to red uniforms. The punches are changed up, along with the bow stance and there is another set of forms to learn; long arm, tiger, slow form 1 and 2, lung (dragon) 2, etc, etc. You're forermn pads get thicker, as does Simon's wallet. Joining PHS meant becoming a member of the Neo-Chan Buddhist temple (as luck would have it Simon was the world leader since he created it) and PHS memberships were treated as "donations". Quite a cash cow for the Simon's in it's hay day of 14 clubs. PHS members received a private class with Simon on his bi-annual visit which was good thing since the only lesson he ever seemed to teach in kung fu club was a knife defense that would leave a student dead or disemboweled if they ever tried it for real. "I have learned the form known to me as, “The Temple Motions”. This same form is also known to me as, “The Eighteen Classical Chinese Muscle Change Positions”. The 18 Temple motions and the Muscle Change Classics were totally different when I was taught them. The muscle change classics were a set of breathing exercises taught in PHS. The Temple motions is a softer form with more flow to it. When R Shergold came down for a seminar in the Toronto area a few years back he taught the first 96 temple motions. I think he mentioned there are 148 or something. I spoke with R. Shergold about these forms and I think many were added after you left. Ask him about them as he was around then. Interestingly enough I have a DVD of the Muscle Change classics being performed by an old Chinese gentleman and they are similar to the ones taught in PHS but with quite a bit more content to them.

Hi Mr.E2ME2, I posted that last response as templekungforum by mistake "Hello templekungforum, As I said, that is one amazing video! Do you happen to know how old it is? Do you know who the man in the video is? That is indeed, Kempo 1 through 3 that I was taught but there are differences. For example, the initial bow and the first move are changed from the versions that I learned." Like I said before that is how TKF more or less does it now. That version of the bow was something that only instructors usually did when demonstrating, but I showed him. The guy in the video is a good friend of mine. We meet and train together once a week. His age?... mid 40's I think. He added an "old film" look to the video which he shot in his backyard, that footage is less than 2 months old, hehe... No wait, I got them mixed up, that IS my real Fu Yen footage!!!

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: Mr. E2Me2: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hello DaveS, I find this conversation very interesting but before we can continue it, I need some clarification, please. What is this term, “Pai Hu Shih”?" I'll include my explanation for another point of view and perhaps some clarity. PHS is a system for which GMS is the founder. PHS is only taught to a select group of students that are chosen through a selection process to have shown skill, character, a level of understanding, loyalty and respect. The PHS system is designed to be a more advanced system that builds on the base of Moh Kempo. It is more physically demanding and the training is designed to be more intense physically and mentally, it's for this reason it is not for everyone. Calling it a "money grab" has obvious bias there is a lot to PHS. For me my training became much less expensive when I was excepted in PHS and the price went down each subsequent year i was in. The pricing structure has changed since then but it's still winds up being less expensive. I know some there was some differences in how Master Sparrow charged PHS memberships that upset some people but I can't comment on what that was about. There are many elements of PHS within the Moh Kempo system or another way to say it is PHS is an advanced Moh Kempo. I've heard people say Moh Kempo is the all false and only when you get to PHS do you learn the correct way, that's a load of crap. There are many people proficient in Moh Kempo that can take PHS people to task using only Moh Kempo.

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Current student: "Calling it a "money grab" has obvious bias there is a lot to PHS. For me my training became much less expensive when I was excepted in PHS and the price went down each subsequent year i was in. The pricing structure has changed since then ...." All PHS donations went to Simon, NOT the studio. They were also treated as 'tax-free" since they were donations. Sounds like a cash grab to me...

Hello Grasshopper, Ha! You fooled me good! I really believed that the video in question was really old. As I said elsewhere, I learned Kempo 1,2 and 3 a couple of different ways. Neither of those ways is what I saw on the video. There are obvious similarities but there are obvious differences too. Hello DaveS, You posted about balance, power, etc. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. You also posted about a comparison of PHS vs. Tai Chi. I didn’t learn Pai Hu Shih so I won’t comment on it. And I never compared Moh to Tai Chi in the past, I am not going to now. You posted, “minion”. Websters dictionary describes a minion as a servile follower. Just so we are clear here. I learned three different versions of Moh from 5 different experts. The moves were similar (and in some case the same). But there were serious differences, none the less. They didn’t like each other either, so I got a unique view of my art. I got a lot of the “why” as well as the “how” from each. What one didn't know, one of the others did. And to top it off, I ended up going my own way, anyway. You posted about Pai Hu Shih, I thank you for that. I’d have to agree, it does sound like money grab. You posted about the change in the forms (from my time there), What you describe is so different that I simply don’t know how to compare them to what I was taught.

Hi MrE2Me2, You mention learning Moh from 5 different Masters(experts). Were these teachers all from the Simon line, M. Hilbig or a different line of Moh! It kind of reminds me of the splitting up of Ed Parker's Kenpo line, many teacher's left Parker and some teacher's seemed to be of a different line. Though all these lines called themselves Kenpo, or a derivative of Kenpo. It's a pity all this infighting happens in MA, even in the style I now practise, there would be the Chen Village line, Feng Zhiqiang's line(which I train) and about a half dozen other interpretations. On a casual observation they seem identical but any little inconsistencies can cause bickering, though not to the extent of what hppened to Parker's system. I guess the allure of money is the biggest detriment to all MA training. Simon undoubtedly wanted to maintain control but as his disciples became more skilled they wanted more control and ultimately got themselves fired. In the end it seems that Simon had to water down the training the students received, was this a conscious effort on Simon's part? Or did the system just get too big and uncontrollable? Whatever the reasons, it seems that the training in the 70's must have been much different, more serious!

"Just so we are clear here. I learned three different versions of Moh from 5 different experts. " -MrE2Me2 I would hardly consider any of the Masters/instructors at TKF "experts"

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MrE2Me2, Out of curiousity where did I post: "You posted, “minion”. Websters dictionary describes a minion as a servile follower....." (although that does describe the TKF flock) Sorry but I don't remember that one and I can't seem to find it. Please clarify. Your points about the historical nature of Moh/ TKF illustrate the situation perfectly. Simon was making it up as he went, adding things that he came across over the years. He made up the style as he went and, from ALL the things I've read, heard, investigated personally and then compared with this "history" he's written or was told by the instructors, it all amounts to one conclusion; he lied to create an image of himself for the sake of making money from his students. I don't have a problem with people making up their own style. What I do have a problem with is people manufacturing their own history as a means to recruit students. That's just dishonest. He makes claims to be "studied" in Northern and Southern Shaolin arts by "Fu Yen" yet mocks the tradition of lineage with his refusal to pay tribute to his teachers. He's the ONLY martial artist I've come across that does this. Anyone ever heard him actually talk about Fu Yen personally? The deception is so obvious it makes one cringe at the lack of critical thinking skills of those that still follow him.

You may well be right Current Student, I have no idea on the circumstances of all the past master's departures. In itself it should be a big red flag on how tkf is run. Just how many master's were there from the 60's-90's? Where are they now? Why do none of them ever make guest appearances at any of the tkf locations? At my school my teacher's master and a fellow colleague have come, by invitation, to give seminars. You would think that simon's old students would do the same, or even some of his past peers, Oh I forgot simon has no peers! A so-called LEGEND in his own mind!

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Current student: "The entire amout did not go to GMS, a portion of the fee was to go to the studio to cover operating expenses. I know for a fact some of the fees I paid never made it to GMS and the entire amout was kept by the studio." Perhaps that was the case where you are now but that was not the case in Ontario. PHS donations all went to Neo-chan and there was also a franchise fee per studio to boot. We're getting off topic here. Perhaps a new topic called "Where did all the money go?" is in order? Since we're on the subject: Why wouldn't Simon step in and help out the schools in Ontario when everything went south? After all, he loves the PHS? Here's another: there were 14 schools at the peak time for at least 5 years with approx. 15 PHS members and adding approx. that many each year, on average. During that 5 year period Neo Chan would have recieved approx. $2 million in donations "tax free"(I'm being conservative here). Add another $1.7 million in franchise fees. Tell me something; How come they haven't even come close to building this "Temple" they had Photoshop'd into the side of the mountain on their web site? Why were they continuously asking for more money? Why were they going to double the PHS fees? FYI, I didn't include book, seminars, Neo-chan $100 donations, uniforms, action-wear, pads, mat shoes, U.S. exchange rates, etc, etc,