To MrE2ME2.
To MrE2ME2: Does anyone (outside of Sensie Larry Kwan) actually know Kempo 4? Yes, R. Shergold for sure (he may have got it from L Kwan). I think D. Piercey knew it but not sure.... Does anyone know if Kempo 1 thru 3 has been changed since 1985 or so? A little bit but not so much that it has totally changed. On my site there is a version of Kempo 1 from your era that has a few definate changes. http://zenshack.net/martialarts/kempoone.htm And if the changes have been made, what are they? kempo one has a few hand changes, the foot work is the same. Look at the video titled "Fu Yen?". That is most like the version of Kempo 1,2 & 3 that is taught presently at TKF http://zenshack.net/martialarts/fuyenvideoclip.htm Also, I have been reading a lot about what amounts to contact. How much limb conditioning takes place in Moh training? There is/ was some. Don't confuse when people say no contact as it refers only to the strikes. Students always wore arm and leg pads to apply proper power on blocks, though that would also depend on the comfort level of your partner. We did conditioning drills often and later spar with no pads at higher levels on occasion. When I was a young student/ teacher I often came home with many bruise on my arms, but a few years late that stopped for me, but many of my instructors (& students :wink: ), suffered the same. In short, YES, there is arm & leg conditioning at TKF. How much body contact is made in the practice of Moh? Very little, I responded to your post on a different thread about this Last, I'd like to know when people trained in Moh. 1992 - 2004

Hey North, not sure what you meant by this: The arguement that things were better in the past was contradicted by students about 8 months ago who said that "More PHS and advanced techniques are being taught now than ever before. Things have changed!" North, are you supporting this claim or are you being sarcastic? No sarcasm. I was just making a statement with a quote about the fact that students did make claims about changes in the system just before it went downhill. tell us what you know of the in school history of the Broadsword form for example Grasshopper. Honest thoughts on that subject as well. Mr. Kelly Kot did say he had been in PHS for a number of years and had learned very very little in that time. Mr. E2Me2 "Does anyone know if Kempo 1 thru 3 has been changed since 1985 or so?" Richard Shergold claims to know it. Margitte Hilbig does know it. She learned her Kempo from Ed Parker and opened the first schools with Olaf Simon in the 60's. She still teaches her Kempo out of the Edmonton downtown city police station. The forms she teaches are the same Kempo's as taught at TKF. "And if the changes have been made, what are they?" No changes other than the personal style of the various instructors who teach it and the ways in which they move. Students tend to mimic instructors manorisms in the forms and as such if you moved from Scarborough to Vancouver back when TKF had studios in such cities you would notice subtle differences. "Also, I have been reading a lot about what amounts to contact. How much limb conditioning takes place in Moh training?" Alot of forearm conditioning. That is the most conditioned section of the body in this style. "How much body contact is made in the practice of Moh?" I am not sure about now what they are doing but they used to not do enough of this critical training in the art of Kung Fu. That methods of proper developement of iron body must be taught and trained correctly. I have some concerns TKF may deside they can just make this up and teach it despite no proper training in what the centuries tested methods of safely doing this are. Simple fact. Olaf Simon's previous system held students back in their developement at the more advanced stages. A good teacher would never do this as I stated before.

"Direct frontal attacks are the very focus of the entire Wing Chun Style. That is what students of Wing Chun do and defend BEST against. Protect the centerline, attack the opponants." Yes, protect the centerline, but not against a very committed opponent. The closeness of the feet to each other in the main Wing Chun stance, as well as how close their blocks are to their own body, leave Wing Chun practitioners totally unprepared to deal with a powerful tiger style attack designed to drive right through them.

"Business aside judging only the style the overwhelming response is that it is not liked." Overwhelming response from whom? Yes, there are a few dozen disgruntled former students and instructors, but compared to the thousands which have attended TKF over the years, I believe they are a tiny (but vocal) minority. "the amount of students that quit is a number above and beyond what other schools are losing" The turnover was very high because of the lack of experienced instructors (and, indeed, bad business practices of the past). You'll find it has significantly dropped in the new studios. "almost every dedicated student or instructor who leaves TKF later informs the public that other styles are better." I don't know where you get your statistics. Do you really know the opinions of most of the students and instructors who've left TKF? Most who say that have not been at TKF long enough to be good judges of what the style can offer, and if they trained under unqualified instructors, it's no wonder if they like their new style more. Like grasshopper said, most of the past masters who've left TKF still practice the system and in many cases teach it.

"rather than just saying your style teaches you the best way to deal with these things actually spend more time considering them and practice with this in mind." That's why we now have regular "street" clubs to try the stuff out. "What? You cannot hit with the ball of the foot because your shoes are too stiff?" My sandals and running shoes are still flexible enough to kick with the ball. My boots are actually large enough for me to make the proper foot position inside the boot while kicking with the hard toe of the boot. In any case, I would keep kicking to a minimum on gravel or ice, especially against multiple attackers.

"How come the training had to be slowed down to the point where students got a private lesson sometimes months apart?" That may have happened either if the student never came in for other classes (his own fault), or if there weren't enough qualified instructors to do so much teaching (not a problem in the current studios). In any case, most schools don't offer any private lessons at all. "Sadly at a private lesson (Or new knowledge lesson) a week which is what a student is capable of learning at in a good school, the entire TKF system could be learned in 1 year with equal skill to TKF brown belts." That's how the instructors were fast-tracked. However, good students with two or three times as many years in the system but less actual knowledge or hours training were still often better than these instructors. That's because it takes time to really absorb and assimilate what's being learned. "A good teacher who doesn't keep secrets that require red jackets to learn will see your skill and teach you at the rate you are capable of learing at." In the past it took a certain amount of time to get to a certain level, regardless of how good you were. This has changed. Your progress is now much more dependent on how quickly you learn and how much you practice. All programs come with a certain number of private lesson hours. If you're ready for a belt test before your program is up, you get tested early. If you're not yet ready by the time you use up all your program hours, you're not automatically given the belt. You can now actually purchase additional private lessons if you want to. When you reach a certain level of skill and understanding, if your attitude it right, you get accepted into the PHS. I don't see anything wrong with this approach.

"It does sound like the sparring and stick hand training has become alot better for conditioning a student. That is good to hear. I hope it's true. You have already found flaws in your stlye that needed to be overcome, doesn't it stand to reason there could be more?" The flaws were in the training methods, not the style. There is a difference. "I have some concerns TKF may deside they can just make this up and teach it despite no proper training in what the centuries tested methods of safely doing this are." So far so good. No one has yet seriously been hurt after a year of significantly more contact.

"I think the best comment to describe TKF so far on this forum was that it is like masters of the 8th grade in school. You guys know everything there is to know about grade 8, you could teach it well! But there is grade 9-12 and University" Unless you've attained a Master level, I don't think you can judge as to how much there is in the system. Even if you're right, grade 1-6 is all I need or would likely use to defend myself. Even moves like tiger's tails and flying spinning back kicks are not ones I would try in a real self defense situation. As the saying goes, I would rather know 100 moves very well than 1000 moves so-so. "Content alone comparing Moh to Hung Gar or Bak Sil Lum shows something is wrong. BSL and HG have about 10 times the knowledge." The quantity of knowledge isn't everything. How good you get at what you do know is what counts. Also, you have to ask yourself if everything you're learning is practical and makes sense. If some of what you're learning is not as effective as other stuff which does the same thing, throw out what's less effective and spend more time practicing what works better. Have you ever considered that perhaps what makes a style good is not only what's there, but also what's been left out? "Anyhow, go take a look at the content "fluff" as you call it that was cut out of your style as you claim." I took your advice and downloaded a few video clips of Xing Yi forms. Unfortunately, I can't say I'm particularly impressed by anything I've seen so far.

"most Masters agree that it is most beneficial to train a variety of styles over time." I suppose you can consider Moo Pai and PHS as different styles. From my experience, though, most masters that get really good have devoted 90-95% of their time to a single good style rather than to a bunch of different ones. Personally, I would rather take on someone with a decade of experience in each of two different styles than someone with two decades in one style. Although the former person may know way more moves overall, the latter one is much better at what he does know, which in my opinion is more important.

"Does GMS got to Edmonton once a week and teach?" Of course not. Several times a year the senior students travel to him to learn. When a wave of masters leave, there's usually new knowledge that gets released. I wouldn't call it a bribe because it's only taught out to those who are left, and is not promised in advance as an incentive to stay. I simply think he has greater trust for his remaining masters and students, and feels more comfortable in sharing his knowledge with them. In any case, the PHS knowledge that was available back in Shergold's days is only a fraction of what is taught now. "On my site there is a version of Kempo 1 from your era that has a few definate changes." No offense to Shergold, but I've seen orange and green belts with much better technique and speed than that.

"no, I am not learning to levitate or shoot lightening out of my hands" Too bad. That would be really cool! :D

I may as well be learning to levitate, as far as you think. When I compare the syllabus of tkf to taiji, well I don't really have a frame of reference to compare the two! The "Moh" style and taiji seem to be fundamentaly different arts, external vs. internal if you will. Some people seem to think that the Chinese Internal arts are"having little combative value"! Why I remember reading that in simon's book, "Law of the fist", and it seems to be repeated, verbatim on that Shaolin B.C. bull site as well. Am I to understand that taijiquan, xingyi, baqua and other arts are just not worth the bother! I could just imagine simon trying to explain "that", to Shouyu Liang, or any other noted Internal stylists on the West coast!

Hello cam, Thanks for your candid response. I studied with Brian Leishman in Edmonton when I first started with Simon’s. I’m pleased to see that you still study martial arts after your experiences. Good luck with that! Hey Grasshopper, I asked about Kempo 4. I actually learned Kempo 4 from one of Sensie Kwan’s black belts a long time ago but I have since forgotten it. Picture me embarrassed I asked about changes made to Kempo I -3. I saw R. Shergold performing Kempo 1 on the video you posted but I tell you, it was Very different. It was much softer and there were moves added to it and some that were taken. I followed the link and I saw the very old film of the Caucasian performing Kempo 1 through 3. WOW! That was a Very interesting video! It would be interesting to learn who he really was (who was the unmasked man?). I read your responses about conditioning and your experiences are very similar to mine. Hello North, Thank you for your responses, they are all appreciated. In my humble opinion, the more we talk about our experiences at Moh, the easier it will be to put them into proper perspective. You typed, “Simple fact. Olaf Simon's previous system held students back in their developement at the more advanced stages. A good teacher would never do this as I stated before.” I agree, in my opinion this is very true. Hey again cam, You typed, “When I compare the syllabus of tkf to taiji, well I don't really have a frame of reference to compare the two! The "Moh" style and taiji seem to be fundamentaly different arts, external vs. internal if you will.” I agree and you are not the first person from Tai Chi to voice such concerns. Back in the day, Andrea (Sifu Andrea Slk) watched me perform Kempo 1 through 3 at a tournament. Later she remarked to Freddy (Sifu Fred Whiting) that I was much too hard and, “shouldn’t be allowed near beginners”. As for your comment about Olaf’s writings. Anything that bothers this guy is okay by me. Ya, I know I turned that one around :-) To all, as I have said before, the Moh we talk the better we’ll get. I also have some moh questions. What are these Lung forms I keep reading about? I learned 3 forms called Hung and they were very hard (but no relation to Hung Gar). Also, I have never heard of Pai Hu Shih. Would someone please care to tell me what that is?

Apologies to all, I typed,"Back in the day, Andrea (Sifu Andrea Slk) watched me perform Kempo 1 through 3 at a tournament." It should have read Andrea Falk.

The Kempo that R. Shergold performed was more or less the same that B. Leishman taught. It was softer and slower, it also had some baqua influence put into it. I remember learning a broad-sword form as well, it was similar to a form I saw Mr. Smith do at a tkf Christmas demo in Scar. ys. ago. When I first joined temple, I was interviewed by Mr. Demetrius and when I mentioned "Master Leishman", Mr. Demetrius became upset and said, " He is NOT a Master"! I always wondered what Leishman's standing was with the temple organization, I can only imagine they were upset because Energy Lake opened up in TO before TKF came out this way. In regards to he comment that Andrea Falk made....ouch! I have never met her, though she does drop by the Guelph area every year giving seminars on the Internal arts, I hear she is quite skilled.