Seriously, I'm starting to feel a little like your avatar....Doh! That's the whole point of those irritating things :P

North, "I simply cannot help but see any TKF student, teacher or master as a jr. student of Kung Fu. Sure you can be excellent at what you know, but I know I can beat you with ease because you are simply completely unaware of some of your styles brutal weaknesses, or some of the techniques from other styles that your style has no defence against. " For you to say you can beat anyone because you know a certain style is not much better when tkf saying(or use to say) they have the deadlest art around. You can learn any style you like and you will become a better fighter for it but this does not guarentees that you will win a fight no matter what.

"I simply cannot help but see any TKF student, teacher or master as a jr. student of Kung Fu. Sure you can be excellent at what you know, but I know I can beat you with ease because you are simply completely unaware of some of your styles brutal weaknesses, or some of the techniques from other styles that your style has no defence against...." I agree with that statement completely... and this one: "I simply cannot help but see any TKF student, teacher or master as a jr. student of Kung Fu. Sure you can be excellent at what you know, but I know I can beat you with ease because you are simply completely unaware of some of your styles brutal weaknesses, or some of the techniques from other styles that your style has no defence against...." ...and this one: "...it's more like trying to get to grade 8 with a working knowledge of half the alphabet!" Finally people are talking some sense around here! It's nice to hear that people have had similar experiences as I've had when moving on to a traditional Chinese martial art. My sifu still teases me years later about my time with "Simon's clan"... :) :oops:

RE
Vortexx: there is enough in just the Moh style to last me decades. You might have trained at TKF for a decade or so, but you've still barely scratched the surface......" After a decade of consistant training you've barley scratched the surface? The sad thing about the TKF situation is the fact that after a decade of training you have to unlearn A LOT of ingrained habits that work against you. Interestinlgy enough that's not usually the case when study other styles of kung fu because they teach you the fundamentals correctly. I'd say you're putting too much faith into the TKF rhetoric.

"Anyway, I think that a street fight, where there are no rules, no refs, and no guarantees as to the number of attackers and the weapons they have, is a way more realistic and important test." -Vortex You are saying tournaments aren't a true test of your abilities. Of course!!! No one is saying that it is. We are stating that, without hurting someone really bad, it will be as close as you can get. If you want to really try out your style then go out on the street and get into a whole lot of street fights or maybe you can do a few tournaments instead. You can choose. You also state about your Masters sparring in the sixties. Dude, that was 46 years ago. Martial arts have changed a whole lot since then. What your Masters were doing then would get them a real butt kicking now.

"I've never hyper extended my arm once since I've left." Perhaps that's because your opponents have been ducking and weaving out of the way of your punch rather than blocking it, or else having no power on their blocks because of poor body structure. If you ever do get blocked with any kind of power on the outside of the arm on the elbow or above it, you will see what I mean. And that's not even mentioning all the blocks and arm breaks which are specifically designed to damage your elbow joint. I'm not simply "thinking" that I'll hyper-extend my elbow because that's what I've been told. I've experienced having it hyper-extended enough times in the past. Keeping it bent is the only thing which saves my arm (and barely at that) from being hyper-extended or broken every time I'm being demoed on or am sparring the chief instructor. If you've never experienced this, then that's simply something that's lacking in your style.

"Here's another question for you; what is the purpose of practicing forms over and over?" To develop better technique and fluidity of motion; to get the various moving, blocking, and striking patterns ingrained into muscle memory; to develop speed, power, and endurance; to better synchronize movement with breathing and chi flow; to get a better understanding of the various motions in the form and ways to apply them; etc. Why do you ask?

"I still do 20-30 hours of Kung Fu a week at this time." Wow, how do you manage to do that? "I don't change styles. I take on more styles. I learned the TKF system including PHS. I learned the Wing Chun System including the dummy, pole and knives. My styles are not mish mash nor are they replacing one another." "I could have perfected the skills I learned completely. But you know what? By continuing to train those skills they still improve, and by adding entirely new and previously unknown elements to my training I understand some of the old techniques in a new light." Good for you, I can certainly see the merit in what you're doing. You seem to have the experience and time to do this properly and benefit from cross-training. I don't think the same would work for most people. "NOW go and take a class on wrestling at your local university or college. Learn the different takedowns and locks. Go back to the temple motion and with wrestling in mind learn more applications. You will suddenly see things you previously would never have noticed." That's true, and I admitted as much earlier on when I said that the Edmonton chief instructor's background makes it easier for him to come up with grappling-related applications. I don't think anyone at TKF would object if someone wanted to do some wrestling on the side.

"Unless it is a TKF form. they simply do not move enough..." Not sure what you're talking about. Except for Lung I, most forms have stepping or some sort of footwork with every single motion. We may not be running around the entire studio when doing a form, but there's certainly no lack of stances, transitions, stepping, etc. Less acrobatics certainly, but more practical and doesn't require one to be a gymnast.

"To actually learn "Kung Fu" a person could not stay with only the Moh system. It lacks too many core principles of Kung Fu." Yeah, it lacks all the "classical mess" (as Bruce Lee put it) and fancy acrobatics of more traditional systems, which may make the style look more aesthetically pleasing but has very little practical value for self defense. "Even Tai Chi push hands would improve a TKF students skill emensely." Yeah, we call it "sticky hands". "...you are simply completely unaware of some of your styles brutal weaknesses, or some of the techniques from other styles that your style has no defence against." For example? I've seen quite a few demos, videos, sparring matches, etc. put on by other styles. I haven't seen everything, of course, but from what I have seen there was nothing there that looked particularly effective which we didn't do; nor did I see anything that we don't have a defense against. I'm not saying that our style is completely perfect (what style is?), but I really don't see those brutal weaknesses you mention.

"Just by seeing the comment that Vortexx makes about holding ones breath and tensing up his chest, it's like he has no clue at all." Take a combative breath and get someone to hit you hard in the gut or ribs. Now, exhale the air and get someone to hit you again (if you dare). Then come back (if you can) and tell me if locking in the breath is ridiculous or not.

"Are you saying you train for self defence for real life situations?" Yes, of course. Fitness, fun, etc. are my primary reasons, but real-life practical self defence is way more important to me than winning tournaments. "When you spar do you strap on the gloves and tag each other say 50% 60% etc. or do you still have no contact sparring?" Some of us use hand-guards, others don't. The level of contact really depends on how much we can take. The contact that senior students make when sparring each other would seriously hurt a less experienced student who is not as conditioned and has not yet mastered the proper breathing required to withstand greater contact. Also, we would make less or no contact on targets such as groin and throat which can't really be conditioned, while making more contact on the torso. "Do you train your punches and kicks on a bag?" Yes. In any case the bag is always there, and students are welcome (and encouraged) to practice on it as much as they want.

"My sifu still teases me years later about my time with "Simon's clan"..." Then your sifu has not sparred Simon or some of his advanced students and instructors.

"The sad thing about the TKF situation is the fact that after a decade of training you have to unlearn A LOT of ingrained habits that work against you." Again, that's something that's been rectified in the new studios. The fundamentals are taught correctly right off the bat. It's no longer about unlearning what you've been taught, but building on it.

"If you want to really try out your style then go out on the street and get into a whole lot of street fights..." Of course I'm not going to do that. But both the Edmonton and Calgary chief instructors have had to use the art to save their lives on multiple occasions in the past (including against multiple and sometimes armed opponents). To me that counts more than success in a tournament. Besides, the Edmonton chief has probably won more tournaments, including international ones, than everybody here combined, and that was before he even joined TKF, so I would hardly call him "untested" in any sense. I'd hate to think what he could do now, after almost two decades of training. "You also state about your Masters sparring in the sixties. Dude, that was 46 years ago. Martial arts have changed a whole lot since then." Yes, tournaments have gotten a lot tamer since then. There used to be way fewer restrictions and way more contact.