Simon's Art is crap!
Please don't tell me that I just simply don't understand it or that I do not have enough knowledge in the art. I went to TKF for 11 years and was a member of the PHS. So I do know a whole lot more about the art than the majority of the people posting on this board. In fact, I have probably taught a fair amount of you. So why is it that Simon's Art is garbage: 1. There is no competing. Who pushes the instructor's and so called Masters to get better? How come I see other school owners getting out there and putting everything on the line. Especially in MMA. My current teacher went out and fought 9 months ago and lost. 3 months ago he did another fight and won. He is much better than before. It is this winning and losing and constant learning that will make you better. Everyone rises to the level of their competition if they want to stay at the top. This is where there is a major flaw at TKF, there is no competition. Ok, so you guys "pseudo-spar". It has been over a decade and I have never seen a "Master" compete. There is all this crying about how this tournament or that tournament does not suit their style. I laugh at this suggestion. My instructor is primarily a kickboxer. I have seen him compete in Kyokushin Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Brazilian Jiu jitsu and Mixed Martial Arts. All very different tournaments. But, he is a martial artist and is able to adapt to the rules. TKF has no legitimacy amongst other schools. It's like doing all the hockey drills and going to team practices diligently for a whole season but not playing a single game. Throw the whole team against a seasoned team in the middle of the playoffs and watch the team that only practiced crumble. Just like TKF would in tournaments. 2. Learning from a generation of non-fighters. Please tell me how someone who has never competed in fighting, how that person is going to teach me how to fight? Ok...sure. 3. The blocks and stances are not practical. Now before you tell me that I do not know how to apply them correctly please let me know if you are a brown belt or higher. If not, then I really would not want to hear your opinion on this matter. If you are a brown belt or higher and think I do not know how to block or go into my stances properly I would like to hear your opinion if you have fought/competed at least 2-3 times in the past year. 4. There is next to nothing in the clinching and ground fighting ranges. In fact, this art is garbage in those fighting areas. Well, these are but a few reasons why Simon's Art is crap.

I guess by all of your your arguement Tai Chi is crap too then... or any other school that doesn't enter into fighting competitions which includes a lot more than just TKF. Master Piercey & Master Jones were not untested. they competed back in their day. Don't know about Sparrow and Jones, but in turn these guys sparred the crap out of their chiefs and supervisors. I can't even count the number of bruises and falls I recieved by higher up teachers and Masters sparring after hours. Unproven teachers my ass. What about the countless TKF students who have used their training successfully in self-defense... Just because they don't have trophies on the wall doen't mean they are no good. I went to TKF for 11 years and was a member of the PHS I (unfortunately) saw a lot of TKF students with that same experience who were not very good, on the other hand I saw a lot who could kick ass. Which are you? I appreciate you hate TKF, they are a lot of things to be upset about with this organization, but the style is not "crap" as you so delicately put it...

I agree with TKF_PHS... Simon's art is crap. I'm not just saying that because I hate him or the business practices or whatever - I'm saying it because I believe it. Simon's art is plagued with an "if he does this, you do that" attitude -- a jumble of techniques with no coherent underlying principles. Many techniques are cribbed from other arts and trained without real understanding (sticky hands anyone...?!?). Fundamentals of movement; footwork, ranging, angles, etc. - are all but ignored by TKF (although they pay lip-service to these things with drills like 'position play' and other silliness - all to maintain the illusion of completeness for the naive students. The big secret of PHS...? To STAND STILL and wait for an attack! Give me a break. The only way to maintain such foolish concepts is to never ever test them out in any dynamic way... oh right LOL. Bottom line: The reason I think Simon's art is crap is because he never had the patience to learn a complete art, never had the loyalty or commitment to remain with a qualified teacher for any length of time, and never gained mastery in any style. Instead, he took short cuts, made up stories, appropriated forms and techniques and gave himself all sorts of false credentials until it appeared to the layman that he was indeed what he claimed to be... On top of all that, he then preached the exact opposite of his own path to his students: follow him unquestioningly while he slowly doles out knowledge to those willing to pay enough. Don't test your skills in tournaments, even though Olaf made his name that way. Don't experiment with other arts - even though that's how Simon cobbled together his 'faux-shaolin' style. Give him unquestioning loyalty - even though he won't even reveal the names of his supposedly honoured teachers... And if that wasn't enough -- the 'art' such that it was (built on the whims and guesses of a man who considered himself infallible) has been passed down - a la 'broken telephone' - through an endless flow of inexperienced instructors who have never sparred properly, been in a fight, etc. -- forms have been changed, knowledge has been 'hidden' - the whole thing is a muddy mess - even if it was a cohesive art to start with, the mismanagement and poor teaching would have significantly diluted it. Other than the sad fact that people have already invested a large amount of time and money in TKF, I can't see one good reason to stick with 'moh' or 'moo' or whatever they're calling it these days when there are so many legitimate arts out there. I think those who fight for the legitimacy of TKF's style just don't want to admit how much time they really wasted.

Hey Drunken Monkey, Although I don't agree with everything that you say such as that TKF teaches "a jumble of techniques with no coherent underlying principles", you do make some excellent comments regarding the hypocrosy in the rules & teachings of TKF and how Simon developed his own style. great post.

Hello TKF_PHS, I happen to disagree with you (no surprise there). The short answer about competition. You posted about no competition. Competition is not the same as self defense. Competition is an athletic endeavor. Training for an athletic endeavor is not the same as training for self defense. Athletic endeavors are usually affairs that last several minutes. Two competitors enter a cage knowing full well what they are going into. To compare these two is an age old argument but I tell you. I am Ready! The long(er) answer about competition. I can see that you have a mma attitude here. You talk well about athletic endeavors. And I am happy you are more royalist than the king where mma is concerned. One should believe in something. Okay, let’s talk about athletes and athletic endeavors for a moment. Let’s talk about the reigning light heavy weight title holder of the U.F.C. Chuck Liddel is an amazing fellow who obviously believes in being well prepared. This multi talented man has been training in various arts since he was 12. This university graduate has degrees in both business administration and accounting. Why he will often take a minimum of 8 weeks to prepare for an athletic event. He has extensive training in BJJs well as wrestling. Yet he usually strikes his opponents until they are unable to continue. When I watch this multi talented athlete, I am always impressed at how my training in Moh stands me in good stead. I am able to see what he is doing and why it works after he has done it. (And no I don’t care to take him on. At 51 years of age, I’m a little long in the tooth to be doing that.) He has good conditioning and he knows what he is about. As you can tell, I am a fan of the U.F.C. It has passion, skill, heart and a host of other virtues (including the ability to pick that which works from various styles). But that doesn’t make it a martial art. It makes the mma a martial sport with rules, referees and judges. You posted about a generation of non fighters. I learned from teachers who shed blood and fought with broken bones. Sometimes they did this for weeks on end, compounding injuries as they went. Something that only a fighter would do. As I have posted elsewhere on this forum. I learned to apply blocks at brown belt. It took awhile and it was very trying but I stuck it out. The end result was that I have the ability to defend myself with blocks. I can and have ended sparring sessions with blocks alone. You posted about clinching and groundfighting. I disagree although I will say that they are not my favorite ranges. But then they don’t seem to be Rich Franklin’s fav’s either. Hello DrunkenMonkey, You posted, “Simon's art is plagued with an "if he does this, you do that" attitude”. This was a basic starting point for me as it was for my students. I find it a good place to begin teaching self defense. You posted about a “jumble of techniques with no coherent underlying principles”. I’m sorry that you see it that way. I don’t see it your way at all, regarding the art of Moh. I see Reading an opponent, Position play and the Definition of stances to be multi level principles that help form a guiding matrix for the serious student of Martial Arts. You posted a long diatribe about Olaf. Quite frankly, you don’t know where Moh came from (for certain). I don’t know where it came from (for absolute certain). I do know that Moh is a living expression of its practitioners. I train it because it allows me to express myself more fully. It is sad that you have invested a large amount of time and energy in venting about something you profess to have no respect for. Could it be that you just feel betrayed and deceived by the business practices?

"Simon's art is ... a jumble of techniques with no coherent underlying principles." You didn't see them. Your instructors may not have seen them (I'm sure some of my past instructors didn't). But they are certainly there! They are now discussed and applied all the time, in every class. To demonstrate them, the instructor often picks several of the most senior people in the class (usually black belts), and asks them to attack him all together, full speed/power, with whatever they want. "Many techniques are cribbed from other arts and trained without real understanding (sticky hands anyone...?!?)." Again, you didn't have that understanding, and your teachers may not have. The current ones do. Sticky hands are the basics of the Snake style, which in the past has been under-emphasized. We do a lot more of the snake style in the current studios. "Fundamentals of movement; footwork, ranging, angles, etc. - are all but ignored by TKF" Again, ignored in the PAST. We now discuss and apply all those fundamentals in every class. "To STAND STILL and wait for an attack! Give me a break. The only way to maintain such foolish concepts is to never ever test them out in any dynamic way..." On the contrary, we test our concepts out on the street. Try defending yourself against several opponents in a narrow alleyway. If you'll get to take 2 or 3 steps, you'll be lucky. I don't care how many tournament trophies you have. If you can't hold your ground, you're not prepared for practical self defense. "gave himself all sorts of false credentials until it appeared to the layman that he was indeed what he claimed to be..." You admitted yourself that he made his name competing in tournaments. GMS was an exceptional fighter. That's not my opinion, that's fact. No one has ever claimed to defeat him. Whatever claims he may have made about his history or lineage (whether they're true or false) do not affect the fact that his skill, power, and understanding of the martial arts were for real. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or has no idea what they're talking about. "Don't test your skills in tournaments, even though Olaf made his name that way." Tournaments in the past were far more realistic, and therefore much more in line with what the system teaches. That's why Simon's students and instructors used to compete, and do very well in them. That's why the current owners have said that if such a tournament presents itself, we may very well enter into it again. Participating in tournaments as they are conducted now would be detrimental to our training. If you don't believe that, you don't know much about practical self defense. "Don't experiment with other arts - even though that's how Simon cobbled together his 'faux-shaolin' style." He had a great talent for the martial arts, a lifetime to devote to it, and a chance to work directly with many other masters from various styles. If you have that, go ahead and experiment with whatever you want. But for most people, the system he came up with is more than sufficient, and is likely much much better, if taught properly, than whatever mish-mash of styles you can come up with yourself. "even though he won't even reveal the names of his supposedly honoured teachers..." His master was Fu Yen. What else are you referring to? "endless flow of inexperienced instructors who have never sparred properly, been in a fight, etc." Yes, that was true, and very unfortunate. But again, you're speaking about the PAST. The current instructors are extremely skilled, have an excellent understanding of the system, and a lot of practical self defense experience. "forms have been changed, knowledge has been 'hidden'" If you had a proper understanding of the system's underlying principles, you'd have no problems coming up with a ton of good, practical applications from any motion of any form. If the knowledge was 'hidden', it was hidden right before your eyes! "even if it was a cohesive art to start with, the mismanagement and poor teaching would have significantly diluted it." Again, that was true in the PAST. The current instructors and masters have been around long enough not to have been affected by it. And it's not the art itself which has been diluted, but the presentation of it. But regardless of how it was presented, those who've worked with the style long enough and hard enough weren't limited by how it was taught because they understood it themselves. "I can't see one good reason to stick with 'moh' or 'moo' or whatever they're calling it these days when there are so many legitimate arts out there." If by legitimate you mean that they have a long provable lineage, or are well respected in the martial arts community, then I can't care less about your legitimacy. The Moh style works, and works extremely well. It has been proven over and over again. If you don't believe that, that's your problem. DrunkenMonkey, I agree with you that TKF has had its share of inexperienced instructors who had not been trained the way they should have been, and had a limited understanding of the style. There have also been some individuals who have held students back and taught certain things incorrectly so that they could retain their edge over them. Nobody is disputing that we have had plenty of poor business and management practices. The quality of training varied greatly over the years and locations depending on who was teaching and how they were teaching it. But none of this means that the style itself is useless. The system has produced some extremely skilled individuals, including those which are currently in charge of the Alberta studios. If you compare a skill class today to one from a few years ago, you'd be blown away by the difference. The way we train and what we learn is brutal and effective. It may not be the prettiest or most complicated style around, but it works, and works extremely well.

My apologies to all, I spelled Chuck Liddell’s name incorrectly. I also neglected to mention that he is a high ranking black belt in Kajukenbo. This is also known as Hawaiian Kenpo. For those of you not familiar with his lineage, it is something like this. Adriano Emperado Walter Godin John Hackleman Chuck Liddell. (If you're into that sort of thing...lineage.) Mr. Liddell’s webpage link is here. http://thepit.cmasdirect.com/ Regards, MrE2Me2

“Master Piercey & Master Jones were not untested. they competed back in their day.” - Grasshopper Well when was back in the day? 15 years ago? Fighting has changed a whole lot since then. Besides how come no one else has heard of these guys outside of TKF? I’ve been in martial arts for 17 years now and I do not know of anyone who has ever heard of any of the TKF “Masters”. Stop living off the so called “accolades” of your instructor/s and start making a name for yourself. What have you done? What have others in your Studio have done? I am positive that when you look around at your classmates that no one has heard of any of you guys outside of TKF. What does the greater martial arts community think of TKF? What do other fighters from other schools think of you and your classmates? Let me guess…they never heard of anyone from TKF. “Unproven teachers my donkey. What about the countless TKF students who have used their training successfully in self-defense...” - Grasshopper Self-defense is another issue completely. In a self defense situation you are usually fighting against some street punk/s who don’t have a whole lot of fighting skill. It does not take a whole lot to defend yourself on the street. 20 seconds and the situation it’s over…win or lose. On the street it’s mean and vicious. No rules. Eyes, ears, nose, throat, joints etc. There aren’t a whole lot of thieves/robbers who would save up the cash to take martial arts when there are other priorities such as food, rent etc to look after. I seriously doubt that one would encounter a very skilled fighter in a self-defense situation. How would TKF stack up against other skilled fighters in other arts? “I (unfortunately) saw a lot of TKF students with that same experience who were not very good, on the other hand I saw a lot who could kick donkey. Which are you?” - Grasshopper How come you have seen students with 11 years of experience and hold brown belts that SUCK? You can walk into any other school and I guarantee that the brown belts in those schools do not suck. That alone says a whole lot about TKF. “You posted about clinching and groundfighting…. I disagree” - MrE2Me2 I bet if your “Masters” went to a kickboxing school and fought, someone with 3 years of experience, in the clinch range that they would get tossed around like a rag doll. Or how about in a Judo school? Same goes with groundfighting. I have personally seen former Chiefs get ripped apart in Brazilian Jiujitsu schools by students with less than a year of experience. "Many techniques are cribbed from other arts and trained without real understanding (sticky hands anyone...?!?)." – DrunkenMonkey Agreed…why don’t you guys go to a Wing Chun school and try your sticky hands there. You will be laughed at because TKF “sticky hands” is a complete joke. That is one of the first things someone from Wing Chun (WC) learns. Beginners with 1 year in WC are more adept in sticky hands than TKF “Masters”. If you don’t believe me just drop by a WC school and prove me wrong. “Tournaments in the past were far more realistic, and therefore much more in line with what the system teaches. That's why Simon's students and instructors used to compete, and do very well in them. That's why the current owners have said that if such a tournament presents itself, we may very well enter into it again. Participating in tournaments as they are conducted now would be detrimental to our training. If you don't believe that, you don't know much about practical self defense.” – Vortexx What tournaments are you talking about? Kumite death matches?!?!?! LOL! I think you may have been watching too much Bloodsport. I wasn’t aware that in the 70’s that there were matches more brutal than today’s No Holds Bar (NHB). If NHB is beneath the standards of TKF then why doesn’t your school just enter 1-2 of your best guys and clean up house in MMA NHB and say “I told you TKF is superior”. The reason why is that the current school owners know that TKF practitioners would go in and just get knocked out. I seriously don’t think that TKF would put up a sporting chance. Why don't you guys stop hiding behind, "we are preparing for self defense" garbarge. So what?....so is every other martial art. Go out and prove yourselves against other arts. What do you have to lose? Prove that your art is better. Win, lose, cry, celebrate that is what you need to do to improve. Learn from other arts. Your "art" which was founded by your bigoted GrandMaster does not have all the answers. No art does. So go out there and earn the respect of other schools. Are you up for it?

Hello TKF_PHS, You posted, ““You posted about clinching and groundfighting…. I disagree” - MrE2Me2 Let’s supposing that we compare sparring, competing and fighting, for just a minute. I can and have fought at groundfighting and clinching ranges but they are not my favorites. As TKFBS posted in Tales of Training, the Gracies are the premier exponents of combat at those ranges. I am not fool enough to compete with them on their level. But to be fair here, I did change the way I handled grapplers (of any sort) after watching Royce Gracie achieve victory in the Octagon. Moh, as I practice it, is a living expression of me. Living things grow and evolve. You posted,” I bet if your “Masters” went to a kickboxing school and fought, someone with 3 years of experience, in the clinch range that they would get tossed around like a rag doll. Or how about in a Judo school? Same goes with groundfighting. I have personally seen former Chiefs get ripped apart in Brazilian Jiujitsu schools by students with less than a year of experience.” Again, let’s supposing that we compare sparring, competing and fighting, for just a minute. I prefer to remain outside of clinching or groundfighting ranges. I fight, spar at ranges that work best for me. You posted.” Why don't you guys stop hiding behind, "we are preparing for self defense" garbarge. So what?....so is every other martial art. Go out and prove yourselves against other arts. What do you have to lose? Prove that your art is better. Win, lose, cry, celebrate that is what you need to do to improve. Learn from other arts. Your "art" which was founded by your bigoted GrandMaster does not have all the answers. No art does. So go out there and earn the respect of other schools. Are you up for it?” On the one hand, I don’t compete. On the other, I am always seeking to improve what I know, like my teachers before me and my students after me. So yes, I am up for it. I just don’t happen to believe that clinching and groundfighting are the best ranges for me or the people I train. Regards, MrE2Me2

"So yes, I am up for it. I just don’t happen to believe that clinching and groundfighting are the best ranges for me or the people I train." - MrE2Me2 Well, I suppose if you are going to end every single encounter in kicking or punching range then I see your point. Who cares about clinching or groundfighting ranges if you truly believe that you can end every physical altercation in those 2 previously mentioned ranges. Since there is absolutely no chance that you could ever possibly end up in the clinch or groundfighting ranges I see your point completely. "So yes, I am up for it." - MrE2Me2 Are you up for it? How are you going about earning the respect of other schools? Other fighters? Explain. How about your students...who is challenging them besides yourself and other TKF members? Who is challenging you to become better? Other Masters from other styles? Instructors from other schools? Or just the cadre from within TKF? I do not think that you are indeed up for it. I believe that you want to improve but only within your controlled parameters. Why don't you put it on the line and show what your style can do? If you are too old or have too many injuries then how come some of your top students cannot take your stead? Are you willing to put everything on the line and put your best against the best of other styles. Maybe I am wrong but I seriously doubt it. "But to be fair here, I did change the way I handled grapplers (of any sort) after watching Royce Gracie achieve victory in the Octagon. Moh, as I practice it, is a living expression of me. Living things grow and evolve. " - MrE2Me2 But yet you guys continue to live off the so called "accolades" of your Masters who sparred like 15 years ago. I am glad that you admit that martial arts has evolved since then. Perhaps from this you can extrapolate that a lot of techniques they were using back then is quite obsolete now.

Hey TKF_PHS, Not sure if you know this but by piecing his posts together you would realize that MrE2ME2 has not been a part of a TKF studio for many, many years... He is not necissarily a supporter of TKF either, but like me feels there is benefit to the style of Moh, just so you get your arguements straight.

Grasshopper, Thanks but I haven't been following the other threads. But, what I said still applies whether or not he is from TKF. Who is challenging him besides other members from his style?

Hello TKF_PHS, . You posted,”… can end every physical altercation in those 2 previously mentioned ranges.” I never said that. I said that I prefer to stay out of clinching and groundfighting ranges. None the less, there are times, even in the street… A testimonial. I have defeated a wrestler in a street encounter. (I was using a waist lock and naked choke). Another one. I trained an adult female for her position as a prison guard. I and my students worked N.H. very hard on her "groundgame". There was a real likelihood of her going to the cellblock floor. I wanted her to be ready for that. Still another. I once thought my grappling was pretty good. My teacher (of Moh) didn’t. He showed me with a choke why I was wrong.. I learned. I can see by you posts that you don’t believe me and that is fine too. Back in the day I knew guys who did compete I knew teachers who pitted their student’s abilities against others. I was even one of them, back in the day. You posted, “Why don't you put it on the line and show what your style can do? If you are too old or have too many injuries then how come some of your top students cannot take your stead?” Actually my students did compete with success. However. My experiences in the arena were a long time ago. Today I don’t run a professional studio anymore. Today my people are not interested in competition. Today I teach and practice for self defense. Today I have a narrower focus in self defense training. In today’s arena, things are different than 25 tears ago. If my people aren’t training on the level of Chuck Liddell, they won’t make it. (I posted about him earlier on this thread.) I get that and by the way, did you read the post by TKFBS in Tales of Training? His experiences at the aforementioned ranges are now commonplace. There was a time when close quarter combat did not get the respect it deserved. Royce Gracie changed that and I get that. You also posted, “Who is challenging you to become better?” Not to put too fine a point on it but I prefer to stay out of close quarter combat. I and my students have test ourselves against other schools, back in the day. Now I use what I have seen and done, as well as the experiences of my students. This helps me form a “what would you do attitude” for myself and my students. Moh forms the base for what I do. You posted about an” obsolete” art. I don’t find my art that way. I find it to be a living breathing growing art. I can and have trusted my life to it. So have my students. Regards, MrE2Me2

Hello TKF_PHS, You posted, "Grasshopper, Thanks but I haven't been following the other threads. But, what I said still applies whether or not he is from TKF. Who is challenging him besides other members from his style?" My response: You have a valid point. It is one I struggle with everday. As I did when I was a young Martial Arts Instructor. I need that drive. Regards, MrE2Me2

Dear TKF_PHS I would just like to point out that your opinion about Moh Kempo being crap is in the minority. It is shared by the likes of DrunkenMonkey and TKFBS on this forum and probably more out in the big bad world, however there is a much larger majority of people who have trained the Moh system in addition to other styles who feel it is solid and effective. This includes but is not limited to: Sifu Shawn (from this forum) Roman D. (Student of Horst Muller in Germany) Trevor Higgs Roman Terlecki click here for more http://zenshack.net/martialarts/pastteachers.htm to mention only a few... Even Master Richard Shergold does not say the style is crap. He has issues with how the style is lacking in many areas (Compared to what E. Parker & M. Hilbig teach), the false claims of Simons history, his lies about where he learned from and his claim to teaching true White Tiger. (Not to mention how badly he was treated by the old man.). he does NOT, however, say the style is crap. If I had to choose the opinion of one of these two following groups: A. A group of proven Masters & teachers who have trained multiple styles upon which to compare for many decades and do not hide behind the anonymity of psydonyms on the internet. This group who still actively teach and promote the style of Moh Kempo. B. You guys who are more or less the opposite, although in fairness most of you have trained in other styles, though to what extent is hard to really prove because you ARE ALL ANONYMOUS and therefor are hard to take seriously. All who say Moh Kempo is crap! I choose A. AGAIN I assert that I am not talking about TKF as a school, it's business practices or it's teaching model. I am talking about Moh Kempo. ALSO I do not wholly disagree with your complaints about the system of TKF, how it imparts knowledge, holding students back, lack of hard sparring, weak ground techniques etc. These issues on their own however do not make the entire style crap. (I should add that NEW TKF management claim they have rectified or are addressing these issues.) If you want to wax philosphically about how great your experience is with Gracie JuJitsu and yet not discuss the weekness of a style that is based on 1 vs 1 combat (which in my opinion is a huge weekness) then you are a hypocrite. This is a huge generality of course as perhaps your JuJitsu school does teach defences to multiple attackers, but then it would be an MMA school which TKF was not so you cannot compare them. I WILL admit that I am not very familiar with JuJitsu as a style so excuse my ignorance, I do not whant to get into a battle over the symantics of a particlar style. I am just saying that ALL indivudual styles have their own strengths and weeknesses. So just because Moh Kempo does not tickle your fancy or work for you, that does not make it crap. Also your point about self defence being a totally different issue when it comes to the validity of a style is completely asonine. So you are saying a style that trains for self defence only and not for the ring is crap? So i guess about 50% (or more) of the people who train MA for their health and enjoyment, the philosophy & inner peace & the SELF DEFENCE are all out to lunch because they don't train for the ring. TKF_PHS Posted: "Self-defense is another issue completely. In a self defense situation you are usually fighting against some street punk/s who don’t have a whole lot of fighting skill. It does not take a whole lot to defend yourself on the street. 20 seconds and the situation it’s over…win or lose. On the street it’s mean and vicious. No rules. Eyes, ears, nose, throat, joints etc. There aren’t a whole lot of thieves/robbers who would save up the cash to take martial arts when there are other priorities such as food, rent etc to look after. I seriously doubt that one would encounter a very skilled fighter in a self-defense situation. How would TKF stack up against other skilled fighters in other arts?" People train at TKF to learn Self Defence and not how to fight in the ring. TKF says from the very beginning of a persons training that this is what they TEACH! "No rules. Eyes, ears, nose, throat, joints etc" This is exactly what TKF teaches. If that's what people go there to learn and thats what they get, then what's YOUR point? Just because YOU want to learn how to compete in the ring and feel that is the most important thing to look for in a school does not mean that the other 50-75% of people who don't want that are losers... Get over yourself and MOVE ON. You don't like Moh Kempo and especially Simon. Fine, great, yippee, MOVE ON. Many people dislike many things but they don't stand on a soapbax and scream at others who still enjoy the things they hate. Now if want to talk about Simons Lies, history, poor treatment of people etc, etc, I'm all for it. A lot of people have been hurt by this and yes I agree that TKF misrepresents what they really teach... and don't even get me going on the whole finances/ cash-up thing. Unfortunatley all these complaints could be made about many other MA schools not just TKF, more than most people realize. It still does not make the style(s) they teach crap. I'm sure you will continue to try and ram your point down our throats which is fine. Freedom of speach is a beautiful thing. I just wanted to point out that when it comes to this subject, you real "Haters" of Moh Kempo are in the minority. I have done a lot of research on this (which I'm sure is obvious), and most people out there who have trained Moh Kempo seriously for any length do not say the style is crap. My $.02 for the day