Question about skills classes
I do most sincerely apologize if this is in the wrong section! I have a question about a practice at my current school, and I wasn't sure in which section the question belonged. I'm a white-belt student. I went through one full hour of beginner's classes, then just under two hours' worth of white-belt classes--so I am supposed to have learned bow stance, cat stance, horse stance, snap kick, some sort of basic front punch, hooking block, kempo I form, and I've just learned a block that reminds me of the roof of a house. I was told that it was required to attend skills classes in order to move forward. Private lessons are once a week, and skills classes I've been told to attend twice per week. Is taking skills classes after only three hours' worth of training normal? Why I'm asking: I find that when I attend the full hour of skills class, I'm fine for about an hour afterwards and then I get horribly, terribly depressed. Like, cry-a-lot-and-want-to-stay-in-bed-for-the-next-24-hours depressed. It's not that I'm feeling badly about my own training due to the high level of skill the others have--I realize that if I train hard, I could probably be a brown belt or higher like everyone else in my skills class. I've tried eating before class, eating after class, drinking more water, and getting more sleep. Nothing is helping so far. The weird part is, I'm okay after private lessons. After that, I just get kind of tired an hour later, no big deal. I even leave the studio smiling after private lessons. But after skills class, I just want to curl up in a hole and hide until the world feels "right" again. When I talked to my instructor and said I didn't feel skills class and I were meshing okay, he just said I need to take the twice-weekly classes or I can't advance. Is that normal? Is being thoroughly depressed after skills classes normal, too? My gut says "this isn't right, and it's not time for you to take skills classes", but my instructor absolutely insists. So...if this isn't normal (taking skills classes with so little training/experience)...what can I do? I'd rather not quit since I feel like I'm learning a lot of great things during private lessons! Thanks in advance for your advice and opinions! :)

Hello and Welcome, Without knowing more I can only make the most basic of assumptions. (In other words, I might be totally off base but I don't think so.) Maybe your diet needs to be looked at. Maybe your assumptions about what skills classes needs to be looked at. I have had students who only took private lessons. That worked for them but they were the exception. I, personally, recommend skills classes whole heartedly. A couple of questions: Do you have a light nutritious meal twenty minutes or so before class? Do you eat after class when you are feeling this depressed? Do you feel you are able to keep up with the rest of the class in group? Do you know private are about learning where group are about practise? Things to think about... Regards, MrE2Me2

Re: Question about skills classes
Hi rioverde, Is taking skills classes after only three hours' worth of training normal? Generally yes, but not for everyone. The key thing to remember is "GO YOUR OWN PACE". Do that and you will be fine. Don't worry about what everyone else is doing. Just go have fun a learn something. Also if you are really that uncomfortable, stay in the back of class so you don't feel like everyone is staring at the back of your head analizing your every move (Which I guarantee you they are NOT) When I talked to my instructor and said I didn't feel skills class and I were meshing okay, he just said I need to take the twice-weekly classes or I can't advance. Is that normal? In my opinion, NO, or at least it shouldn't be. At the higher levels group/ stamina training is a must, but as a beginner, not so much. As your teacher I would do everything I could to make you feel comfortable in skill class and get you motivated to be a part of the group training, but I would never say you won't advance if you don't go. Not to a beginner. Is being thoroughly depressed after skills classes normal, too? No. Could be a number of things at work here. Are you putting a lot of pressure on yourself? Are your teachers putting pressure on you to do things you cannot (Yet). Mr E. made some good suggestions as well. Maybe something is going on in your personal life that is affecting your mood. Also, If you have not exercised in a long time, then the release of tension/ stress that comes from vigorous exercise may also be be releasing other pent up emotions (Not to be too phsyco-analytical here, but I've seen it before) Just continue to work through it (At your pace) and in time you will feel better!! I'd rather not quit since I feel like I'm learning a lot of great things during private lessons! THEN DON'T

Thanks for the advice! It's so wonderful that you're all so willing to share your knowledge and experience! Yes, I do eat a nutritious meal about a half-hour before I arrive at class. While I can see that the skills classes are very educational, I'm told that after the fourth skills class if I'm not keeping up with the brown belts, then I'm not "serious enough" about my training. Perhaps that's part of the problem? If there is pressure, it's not just internal, I believe. I *am* serious about training. I'm also against pressuring myself and trying to go faster than I'm physically able. Especially when I haven't even learned a backwards kick yet and I'm expected to do them as well as and as quickly as the brown belt students. I'll talk to my main instructor again on Tuesday. If I'm still getting the "but you MUST attend or I won't train you" then I may have to find a different studio. Regardless, I do appreciate your wisdom and insight, and your willingness to share. Thank you!

Hello Rioverde, Grasshopper’s response was so well written that he has pretty much said it all. I noticed on your response that you said, “I'm told that after the fourth skills class if I'm not keeping up with the brown belts, then I'm not "serious enough" about my training. “ In my opinion; This is Rubbish! I don’t believe that you are not going to be able to keep up with brown belts until you have been training for a lot longer than you have. For example: I was a wild man when I was a colored belt. I worked myself to muscular failure on my yellow belt test. I got knocked out during my orange belt test. I pushed as hard as I could often. Yet there is no way I could keep up with my senior classmates… You posted, “I'll talk to my main instructor again on Tuesday. If I'm still getting the "but you MUST attend or I won't train you" then I may have to find a different studio.” Please let us know how it goes. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice

When you talk to the head instructor be sure to mention that comment: rioverde wrote: I'm told that after the fourth skills class if I'm not keeping up with the brown belts, then I'm not "serious enough" about my training. I am guessing a Jr Instructor might overstepping his bounds which is not hard to imagine of the franchise structure is no longer there, thus allowing greater freedom. To try and force a beginner to have skill using pressure IS NOT the kung fu way. Kung Fu is about hard work consistantly over time but it also about the individual making the choice to struggle through it. If you want someone hitting you with sticks and punnishing you for not being good enough you could have taken Taekwondo. Some people come to kung fu because they have heard about the gentle teaching in this art. The exercise is punnishment enough for most they hardly need someone else making it harder. If you are unable to resolve the situation to your satisfaction then honestly this school is only going to hold you back and ultimately disslike your training. I would bet the reason you don't like skills class is a combination of the pressure and adapting to the art. When a white belt goes to skills class they feel stupid. I did when I was a white belt, I am sure everyone here from Master on down felt stupid as a white belt. It's just trying to learn something you don't already know so don't feel bad about that. Deal with the instructors attitude first and I am betting everything will fall into place. Otherwise Grasshopper did indeed give you great reply. I read your message and then his and realized I really didn't need to post lol. But after hearing about an instructor using pressure to try and cultivate skill I decided to jump in there not just for your sake but or the sake of all his students. The senior instructor should know he is treating students this way because at this time Kung Fu is not at it's peek for consumer interests and the last thing any school owner needs is a Jr instructor driving off students.

Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate your encouragement and straight talk on this topic. As a white-belt student, I realize I have a lot to learn and much more to puzzle through. I'm glad there is a place where I can ask questions and get honest and direct answers. I like the style, both of the forum and of the style. The chief instructor was the one that told me to keep up after four sessions. He told me a couple of times that he's "easy on newbies" for the first three, maybe four sessions, too. THEN we have to keep up. Otherwise, we're not serious enough about our training and we are disrespecting the higher level students' training if we slow them down. My basics instructor told me that I could drop skills classes "for now" when I spoke to him last Tuesday, but he said he wasn't sure that just basic lessons alone would suffice "in the long run". Instead, he's spoken to a brown belt student to mentor me in "getting me in shape". Unsure if this is normal, either, but I do need to get in much better shape physically anyway. The student he mentioned is someone that I respect (so far). It is my hope that it may help some to work with this brown belt student. I really don't want to seem lazy. I'm pretty focused in most things in my life. I want to train as hard as I personally can, but I don't want to kill myself training--I did overwork my abs to the point of puking on Wednesday. I'm going to take it slower now though, and it will probably take me longer than the four months they keep quoting to be at a skill level I feel is validly at orange-belt level. (Is four months to orange belt normal? I feel like it will take me twice as long, at bare minimum...) Also, is it normal to be taught Kempo I form in one half-hour session? I guess I look at it as four separate parts that I think would probably be easier for slowpokes like me to learn if presented in those four different lessons--five, if we work on putting it all together. I actually had to look at MrE2Me2's video out on YouTube to be able to remember parts of the whole during home practice! I like Moh Kempo, but I'm starting to wonder if my feeling ill after training sessions is psychosomatic--that is, if it's just intuition saying this is the wrong studio for my training. Guess I should have questioned more during the invitation to train. I'll admit that I didn't want to see it at the time, but there were some high-pressure sales tactics used. Thanks again, everyone. I really DO appreciate your wisdom and kindness, more than I can currently express. I am truly grateful for everything!

The fact you are enjoying the art is great! :) I think that it sounds like you have a VERY good jr Instructor. His solution to find a brown belt you are comfortable with to mentor you is a brilliant one. a) You will learn 1 on 1 which is more effective, but towards the goal of feeling comfrtable in skills. b) You will have time to learn techniques a bit more to "your" level of comfort before running into a skills class and struggling to keep up because you are always having to look at what they are doing and try to analyze it before you can even join in. By the time you actually start doing a few right they have moved on to the next unpredictable technique. :) It's been almost 15 year for me but I still remember that feeling. I made a point of never forgetting as many things as I could rememeber about being a student so that I can be a more empathetic teacher. NOw, to help you understand your instructors logic on skills classes i'm going to translate a bit of whats trying to get at. "For now" is his way of telling you he views skills classes as very important. He is right in this belief, they are important to your developement. They are most effective exercise classes to help students developed cardio and strength. They contain so many repititions of techniques that you develope "skill" from the practice. I have seen students who managed to make a fair distance in their training without attending skills class. They had knowledge but were ultimately not very skilled at all. It is hard as a teacher to hand a belt over to someone because of their knowledge alone. That belt they wear is a representation of the school. It truly should be earned, and I promise you nobody is going to develope a "proper" snapkick or cutting block if they haven't logged the hours doing the repititions. Here is the trick to skills calss for a beginner. They told you you can take it easy, and I am not sure HOW that went about but you can ALWAYS take it easy regardless of what they say. You are there to learn at your own pace. Anything else could compromise the amount you enjoy your training. When you are in skills calss and you feel you are starting to push your fatigue limmits just back off slowly. If the count s 1....2....3.....4 for each block/lick etc and you are getting exhausted don't push yourself, but no need to draw attention yourself either. You don't need to go sit on the sideline, you just slow down. Do a technique on 1.........3.........5... etc so you are still doing half as many as the brown belts and are still accomplishing what you went there to do. Learn som Kung Fu while having fun. Also be aware of how relaxed you are. IF you are tense and trying to use strength in skills class you will blast through your energy reserves in minutes. The first evolution for a martial artist in the style of Kung Fu is generally to learn to relax. Tense up your arms and shoulders and try to punch 30 times as fast as you can. Relax completely and try again. Relaxation leads to speed, fluidity and improved reaction/counter-reaction. use the skills class to teach yourself to relax. Focus on the technique of a punch and never ever the power in skills class. Skills class is an atmoshere where the students are provided with a workout that should challenge any belt level, yet it is the student themselves that have to find where they fit in that spectrum and to not overdo it trying to keep up with senior belts. It sounds as though perhas the head instructor where you are training might have gotten that mixed up a tiny bit. The next time your cheif instructor tries to pressure you into developing skill at a rate that will affect how much you enjoy your training I would simply turn to him and say, "I appreciate you wanting what is best for me sir, however I do believe it would take me at least three lifetimes to learn all of Kung Fu and knowing that, I just don't see the need to rush things right now, especially if in so doing it will make me stop enjoying my training." I think he will understand what you are saying completely. Don't be in a rush to get "the next belt." for it's just colored cloth and ultimately meaningless. You will feel like there are secrets at the belts you don't have and desire to progress to unlock those secrets. Instead of secrets view it like school. You have to learn to add and subtract before you learn to divide or multiply. Division and multiplication are hardly secrets, it is just until your arithmatic is good enough you simply are not ready to learn the next stage. Kung Fu is art and it's about expressionism. One of the small problems with the Moh Kempo style is that it has become something that is taught with an almost exclusive focus on the combative application of the art. Even instructors can be guilty of forgetting that some people do not come to learn how to fight. many come for fitness or to learn something fun and intricate. It took me awhile to truly be able to look at each of my students seperately and give them what they each want in the art. I think I know who your head instructor is, and he is still a fairly young man. Remember that he is only human as well and that the way he teaches things right now will probibly be completely different when he teaches things 10 years from now. Teachers are always evolving and realizing how to be better at their job; transfering knowledge and helping build self respect. Now to answer a couple questions: "Is four months to orange belt normal? I feel like it will take me twice as long, at bare minimum...)" -4 months to orange belt is a very reasonable number assuming you do not miss lessons. (In my experience students who start habitually missing lessons never ever make it in Kung Fu so if you want to succeed, always go.) I could probibly teach you all the knowledge up to Orange belt in 1 month without any problems at all so long as I find the way to connect with how you learn in order to get that information across. 4 months gives you time to learn it and to also develope some skill at it. Also, is it normal to be taught Kempo I form in one half-hour session? -Yes, I would say Kempo I should be easily teacable in 1/2 an hour. I have had students absorb it in 10 minutes. Ultimately though when learning a new form it doesn't matter at all how long it takes them to teach you, the only thing that mattersis if you are able to retain that knowledge. This has 2 factors. 1) the student has an obligation to practice their forms at home, or in their spare time. If you do not practice it alot off the start (close to the time you learned it) then you will end up having to relearn it. This will take up class time you could have spent learning something new. 2) the instructor has to teach in such a way that you learn the form, are able to do it crudely enough to improve upon and you will remember it. You do not have to focus quite as much on the intricate little details as your brain tells you right now. Right now you are grabbing a lump of clay and shaping it roughly. that is the form as you know it. Over time and through practice you will work that clay until it's a piece of art. If you find yourself wondering exactly what trajectory the fist should travel through and if your pinky finger should be tucked in or not then you are overthinking things. Instructors can also overthink things and try to teach a "perfect" version of a form in a first lesson. If they have too many fine details they keep correcting on you it will end up that you cannot learn the form because you are overwhelmed with too much information. knowing now what I have said above you have some level of responsability to help your instructors to teach you. If you are having trouble learning it let your instructor know. He doesn't want to waste time training you something you know you will forget, he wants the gratification of seeing you progress. In closing a note on forms. They are never easy to learn so don't feel discouraged if it makes you feel uncoordinated or stupid. One of the key purposes of forms is to strengthen the connection between your mind and body. To give you mastery over your physical movements. Because of this you should not expect your form to look perfect until it has reshaped your body enough for that reality. Always strive for perfection, but never be dissapointed if it is not instantly there. Kung Fu is not supposed to be easy. :)

The brown belt student--my mentor, now, I guess--actually personified the gentle training North spoke of. It's a HUGE difference. The brown belt mentor is also communicating where my attempts at stances or motions may be just incorrect enough that I may be causing myself unnecessary strain on joints and muscles--I think this particular student has a more discerning eye for the way someone closer to their size moves. The basics instructor was surprised to learn that I wasn't doing the horse stance correctly. The instructors clarified part of the "thou shalt keep up with other students and attend skills classes" was mostly an attempt at motivation, and they figured it was clear they were not trying to make it mean that the impossible should happen--it was supposed to be a "do your best and you will progress" statement. 95% of their students are male, they said, and most don't take the statement as literally/seriously as most of their female students do. Many female students tend to overanalyze the movements and motions performed, and tend to be more critical of their performance, I guess. So we agreed that perhaps stating it the way it was stated was confusing and caused undue stress. Also I didn't realize it until they told me today, but I had actually impressed them with a few things I did better than expected during the first hour and a half of training. That was part of the reason they hadn't been all that concerned when I mentioned being uncomfortable during the first few skills classes. Again, thank you all! Without you, I would have probably quit! If someone else goes through this, I hope they find this post and realize they don't have to quit. Sometimes it's just a big misunderstanding. Sometimes it's a combination of factors (inexperienced instructors, maybe, trying to impress their chief instructor, or potentially socially-enforced gender different communication issues, or just about anything). It helps that we new students have such wise and experienced artists to discuss things with! Thank you so much!

Rules & Guidelines Ethics of Training 1. The art of Kung-Fu is handed on by skilled teachers. It is of first importance that students trust their teacher. For without trust, true learning cannot take place. 2. Students make progress in different ways and at different rates. New knowledge is introduced when the teacher sees a student is ready. Therefore students should not request extra knowledge but are encouraged to clarify what they have been taught. This can be done by consulting the teacher or other students. 3. Students are expected to use the Training Hall to work on their skills and physical fitness. Standing idle or engaging excessively in conversation are discouraged. 4. Skill classes can be physically demanding. Students are expected to monitor their endurance, and must take rest periods to avoid exhaustion or excessive stress. Infribgement of this rule is a serious matter. 5. Kung-Fu draws upon the idea of "empty mind" as a means of training students to face dangerous confrontations. The teacher is concerned with a student's mental attitude as part of this training. Otherwise, student's personal beliefs and commitments have no bearing on their relationship with the teacher, or on the program of the instruction.

Thank you North and sifusblano. Your words of wisdom have made an impact. Thank you for explaining further. It is appreciated.

You are most welcome. I am just happy to see this forum has done some good. It is a sure sign that things are turning around for the karma of this style. Instead of a rift between the old school and those who left we now can see those who left offering their assistance to those still teaching the art. I am sure everyone here will agree this is a good direction.