PHS fees why the differences?
I started this topic as this was starting to highjack the thread that was about the Moh System. Current student: "The entire amout did not go to GMS, a portion of the fee was to go to the studio to cover operating expenses. I know for a fact some of the fees I paid never made it to GMS and the entire amout was kept by the studio." Perhaps that was the case where you are now but that was not the case in Ontario. PHS donations all went to Neo-chan and there was also a franchise fee per studio to boot. It was suppose to be that part of the money went to the studio. Not sure why it would be differnt in the East. If you have insight to know for certain all of the money went to NCBT maybe you have an idea why it was different in the East as well. I'm curious myself, but I'm pretty sure the differnces regonally have to do with the differnt owners. We're getting off topic here. Perhaps a new topic called "Where did all the money go?" is in order? Agreed so i started another thread. Since we're on the subject: Why wouldn't Simon step in and help out the schools in Ontario when everything went south? After all, he loves the PHS? Well for one nobody said anything. I remember Sparrow saying everything was going fine in the East. I know I suspected otherwise when hearing about the pricing structure you guys had. Then all of a sudden nobody could reach master sparrow. I can't say with any certainty that Sparrow didn't ask GMS for help but seeing as he didn't ask any of the other owners I doubt he did. I think he was embarrassed that he could not do it himself, who knows. Here's another: there were 14 schools at the peak time for at least 5 years with approx. 15 PHS members and adding approx. that many each year, on average. During that 5 year period Neo Chan would have recieved approx. $2 million in donations "tax free"(I'm being conservative here). Slight problem with your math. Your taking the PHS fees that you guys paid in ONT in the last 2 years and applying to all the studios over a course of 5 years. The way i figure it comes to somewhere between 500,000 and 750,000 over 5 years for memberships. Add another $1.7 million in franchise fees. Tell me something; How come they haven't even come close to building this "Temple" they had Photoshop'd into the side of the mountain on their web site? Franchise fees were changed at one point to be a sliding scale depending on how well the studio did. I'm not sure at what point that went into place so I can't comment on how much was paid. Why were they continuously asking for more money? In your case I would think it was obvious they were in financial trouble. Why were they going to double the PHS fees? Same reason. Like I said your pricing was unique to you, this could only be a decision by Master Sparrow to make it different. IF it came from GMS we would have all had the same increase at the same time. We still do not have the fees you had to this day. FYI, I didn't include book, seminars, Neo-chan $100 donations, uniforms, action-wear, pads, mat shoes, U.S. exchange rates, etc, etc, Not sure what the neo-chan $100 donations are that you speak of. Was this something else you had in ONT that we didn't? I agree the equipment was not as cheap as you could by from suppliers who had chinese made gear. The Blackwolf equipment was made in Canada and I for one liked that, even if it wasn't as cheap. I always try to buy Canadian made where I can. Other than uniforms you were not required to buy any of the other stuff you could go buy chinese pads and shoes if you wanted, I know many people who did. I know the TFK mat shoes were not very durable but one good thing is you could was them, unfortuanly washing them greatly shortened their life.

RE
I based my calculations on our old Ontario fee structure: 1st year $800 2nd year $640 3rd and forward $480 Let's split the difference at $1 million, arguments sake. Where's the building? Even if he paid the land off in full how come nothing was ever really constructed. What happened to all the money? Gee, Beaver?????? (scratching head).

We were all told that the 'donations' were going towards building Simon's shrine - don't act as though that was some anomaly, Current Student. On top of that, the NeoChan website (which, tellingly, has been shut down as well...) stated the following: "The Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple of Canada has commenced preparation for the construction of an international shrine near the township of Grand Forks. This Temple will be the main temple for all followers of this religious persuasion." "The main structure of the Temple will be two hundred feet in length with a span of forty feet. The height of the structure is estimated to be close to forty feet as well." -and now now the scary part: "The total completion of this project will involve vast amounts of money and energy, most of which will be provided by the followers of the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple and the adherents of the Neo Ch'an thought." Pretty hard to misinterpret that... unless you've brainwashed by Olaf - or worse, by Nanlao: "I think this year the need for the (mind training) seminars is even greater than ever as the touch of greed, envy, competition seems to be penetrating our society almost to epidemic level. We see it in our own rows and we must all work to stem the tide. I would ask that the students of Temple Kung-fu in the Kung-fu Club and the Pai Hu-shih help to return what Grand Master has given to us and begin to serve in ways which will be explained to you by your Chief Instructor and the Supervisors." --D. June Simon, Temple Arts Magazine (Vol. I Issue III Holiday Issue)

RE
Current student: "Even at $800 each per year which you have to admit was super cheap, 800 X (15 PHS per studio which is optimistic we had half that) = 12,000 per year. then 12,000 times the 15 studios = 180,000 per year. Over 5 years is $900,000 so yeah we're getting closer. Mind you I think the number of PHS maybe be optimistic and using the max fee. I think if we average it we get closer to $750,000 over 5 years......" You're assuming no new PHS students were brought in each year. Over the 5 year period I averaged 10 new members per year per club. In Mississauga alone we brought in more than that. Maybe not as many out west but I created an average across 14 studios. And yes there were at least 14 studios during that 5 year period. It was probably closer to 11 for 10 years. Your math needs to be revised. As mentioned, I averaged it to a conservative figure. A primary reason for the Ontario increase was due to the financial strains of creating this temple. A temple, not a gazebo that exists now. Unless the temple was built in Hawaii.....sorry my mistake then.

RE
And this thread should be called "Where did the money go?".......

I don't see the point is arguing the difference between $750,000 and $900,000 we can agree that it's somewhere in that ballpark. So do any of you know what the templelands is worth. How much was it to buy that land (I forget the number of acres but it's big) and do the work that's been done to it so far (roads utilities clearing etc.) ?

Gentlemen/Ladies, having taught in both the eastern and western studios and worked with both Masters on a business level, not just on the mat, I can tell you that if the studios actually recieved PHS fees they would likely still be open. The "intention" was for them to recieve a percentage but it didn't happen exactly according to plan. Both Masters asked for help from head office on many occaisions. I know this because I was there when calls were made. Bottom line - they did not get the help they needed when they needed it most. I hope the "new crew" there never gets treated as many good men before them have....

I'm curious what administration you worked under? But I know what you mean back then sometimes the studios got their cut sometimes they didn't sometimes the money made it to NCBT sometimes it didn't. I personally agree that the studios probably could have used a larger cut especially through the leaner times. I'm not sure it would have made that much of a difference overall.

All that land could not have cost more than $300,000. I know a fair amount about real estate and the going prices for that particular area. As for clearing land etc...there was a lot of free labour that was provided. Even if it was only $500,000 donated please don't tell me that only a crappy gazebo was all that can be built.

I agree the gazebo thingie is not much to look at. There is a lot more than that there actually though not much for buildings as yet. There are marked roads benches, a training area, a nice spot where they added 2 huge poles with giant US and Canadian flags flying. I too wish there was more buildings but there are other things that have to be in place first. Now that the roads are in should make other changes easier. The sagamore property was worth more than $300,000 so I suspect temple grounds is worth substantially more since it's about 20 times larger.

The Gazebo is crap. I can build something a whole lot better with $1500 in building material. How much do you think some benches and flag poles cost? LOL! The roads were not all that expensive either. Temple Lands is not a whole lot of money. Just because it covers a lot of area does not make it worth substantially more. Land 1/4 the size in downtown New York is worth hundreds of millions more. Temple Lands is hardly in an area that I would call Prime Real Estate.

I agree point well taken. My point about saggamore is as a reference it's not very far from temple grounds and is tiny by comparison. Still it's closer to Grandforks proper so that would tend to increase it's value. You'd probably need to talk to a realestate developer in that area to get a real good estimate of the value of the land. Anyway my point is it is coming along but it will be slower now understandably.