PHS DONATIONS/ TEMPLE LAND

Hi Schrek, I was just giving you my opinion. The way I see it, the Temple Land was available for the enjoyment of those who had helped to make it happen. Some of us took advantage of that opportunity. I'm glad I did. If you didn't, well I guess you missed out. Too bad for you. Those of us who made the effort to go, got to hang out with Grandmaster. That was one of the biggest motivations for me to make the trip. It was really cool to just hang out with Grandmaster Simon. Chatting with him in an informal setting such as a BBQ, you realize he's a regular guy which sorta helps to put things into perspective. You said: ...in parallel, ur asking the customer to pay for a "blockbuster" video membership, ur being asked to pay more for "supreme membership" to notch movies, but u gotta pay for your own movie cuz they are made overseas...??? after all ur membership fees?? Huh? Your "parallel" doesn't make sense. "Blockbuster" video membership, has nothing to do with the Temple Land. You said: and honestly, ur telling me that after paying well over 1500 bucks a year to "train", none of that could have been diverted to this "temple" land? Nope, I'm not telling you that at all. Here's what I'm telling you: donations of time, money, and good honest hard work were used to help support facilities in Grand Forks. Those facilites were available to us to enjoy. Some of us did, and some didn't. You said: and honestly...is it realistic that after milking students sooo much money, that they can pay for air fare to this land? Milking students? Well there's no sense crying over spilled milk :) To be honest, I'm avoiding a debate as to whether or not you got your "money's worth" because my perception of "value for money" is not the same as yours. That's because it cost me less to train per year than you and I took advantage of stuff that you obviously didn't. More significantly, it's a moot point because TKF as a business entity no longer exists. Even though the TKF business model for teaching Moh Pai and Pai Hu Shi are gone, I think the styles will probably be around for a long time to come, surviving by being passed down from master to student. I like the non-profit setup that we are trying here in Alberta. Everyone pays the same nominal amount just to cover expenses. People who train are students rather than customers. They aren't entitled to anything. Everything has to be earned. RD

LOL @ mandatory PHS donations

Hello CroWear, I assume your ambiguous lolz are directed toward Shrek's humorous use of the word "mandatory" in describing a donation. I think it's just a matter of poor-choice-of-words. There was indeed a financial contribution that Pai Hu Shi members were expected to make, which is what Shrek was referring to. As I mentioned before, this so-called "donation" was used for a number of things including expenses for facilities that were available for use by the Pai Hu Shi. I suppose it's not unlike when a group of people go out to a restaurant together, and everyone is expected to contribute to the bill and the tip. Not exactly mandatory, but it's frowned upon if you don't. Regardless, it's a thing of the past. I'm actually disappointed that we no longer have access to the facilities in Grand Forks, as I used to enjoy the annual Grand Forks road trips. Sigh! Happy memories... RD

There was indeed a financial contribution that Pai Hu Shi members were expected to make, which is what Shrek was referring to. As I mentioned before, this so-called "donation" was used for a number of things including expenses for facilities that were available for use by the Pai Hu Shi mmm... "members were expected" that doesn't make it sound all that better. RD... what would happen if member choose not to "donate" would he/she be looked down upon or asked to leave? Also has anyone you know not "donated" money as Pai Hu Shi member? Doesn't your monthly or yearly payment cover the costs of running the facility and purchasing of training equipment or did all the money go in the pockets of the owner which to me is what it sounds like? In all honestly I have never heard of any Martial Art, Boxing or Wrestling club expecting "donations" from it's students, that doesn't sound right at all.

Hello CroWear mmm... "members were expected" that doesn't make it sound all that better. Sounds ok to me. I'm not going to debate every word with you. As I already said it's a thing of the past. The point is moot. RD... what would happen if member choose not to "donate" would he/she be looked down upon or asked to leave? I haven't made donations in years. No one has asked me to leave. Like I said, thing of the past. Also has anyone you know not "donated" money as Pai Hu Shi member? Yes. See previous comment. Doesn't your monthly or yearly payment cover the costs of running the facility and purchasing of training equipment or did all the money go in the pockets of the owner which to me is what it sounds like? Which facility are you referring to? We train at Mellinium Place in Sherwood Park now. It's a multi-million dollar family recreation, fitness, and sports complex. So no, my monthly payment (less than the cost of a YMCA gym membership) doesn't even begin to pay for running the Mellinium Place facility. As for the pockets of the owners, which owners would you be referring to? In all honestly I have never heard of any Martial Art, Boxing or Wrestling club expecting "donations" from it's students, that doesn't sound right at all. Really? There's a lot of clubs out there. You're familiar with them all are you? mmm.... now that doesn't sound right at all. CroWear and Shrek, I think the problem is your information is out of date. You seem to be under the impression that nothing has changed since the admittedly questionable TKF business practices from about five or ten years ago. RD

Donations....
The donations setup was a vehicle for Smon to make money, plain and simple. The land in Grands Forks was bought and paid for long ago and the donations kept going to Simon. Name one thing on that land that justified an extremely large sum of money? There a lot of compelling reasons to set up a "religion" and take donations. But let's use some common sense here; Simon was the financial benefactor, not the students. What happened to the giant pagoda that was to be the "shrine"? Who still owns the land? Simon, unless he sold it. Apparently he still lives there though, according to his new website. I had plenty of chances to go to Grand Forks but it just wasn't my thing. I saw the pictures after and I was confident I made the right decision. You guys from Alberta could drive if you wanted to. That wasn't really an option for me in Mississauga. Everyone is entitled to their opinion RD. Clearly your OK with TKF/ Simon, the style, etc. I was there long enough to see the organization for what it was. TKF had some good points and a lot of bad points. I don't think the style will endure as some seem to believe. It's not that great. Yeh, I know, RD, what you do is different. Geoff Crossman and company have it all sorted out. I used to say the same thing but I've been through enough apprentice masters that I've become a little skeptical on that one. Geoff Crossman used to train at my club in Mississauga before he got tranferred out do to armed forces responsibilities. At least I think that is why he went. Nice guy, blue belt when I met him. No doubt he's improved. I guess at the end of the day if a person is happy with the style and teachers he trains with then keep training there. TKF may be no more but that does not eliminate the fact many people feel scammed out of their money. Dave

Hello DaveS, The donations setup was a vehicle for Smon to make money, plain and simple. The land in Grands Forks was bought and paid for long ago and the donations kept going to Simon. Name one thing on that land that justified an extremely large sum of money? That's your opinion based on speculation. You'd have to have inside information in order to know for sure. I don't believe you have such information. But whatever, as I said before it's all in the past. There a lot of compelling reasons to set up a "religion" and take donations. I wouldn't know. But let's use some common sense here; Is that what you call it? Sounds more like sour grapes to me. Common sense is a handy way to cover your butt when you make unsubstantiated accusations. Simon was the financial benefactor, not the students. Again, either you have inside info, or you're guessing. Either way, I don't really care to debate you. What happened to the giant pagoda that was to be the "shrine"? I helped paint it. We hit a bees nest. I learned that day that there's no Kung Fu technique that'll help you when you're half way up a ladder holding a can of paint and a paintbrush, and you get attacked by a bee. Maybe it was a wasp. Whatever it was, it bit hard! That was the day I learned about Deet. I also remember making a couple of painters who caught a ride up the mountain with me, ride back in the truck box because they were covered from head to foot in blue paint, and I was more concerned about my uphostery than their comfort!@ Who still owns the land? Simon, unless he sold it. Well yes I suppose if Simon owned the land to begin with, then those would certainly be the only two possibilities. Apparently he still lives there though, according to his new website. Where? On the Temple Land? :lol: I had plenty of chances to go to Grand Forks but it just wasn't my thing. I saw the pictures after and I was confident I made the right decision. You missed out. Too bad. You guys from Alberta could drive if you wanted to. Yes we did. One year I car pooled with a guy who came out from Toronto. That wasn't really an option for me in Mississauga. Right. Because Mississauga is so much further than Toronto? :wink: Everyone is entitled to their opinion RD. Agreed. Clearly your OK with TKF/ Simon, the style, etc. I was there long enough to see the organization for what it was. Really how long? I've been training the style as one of Grandmaster Simon's students for seventeen years. TKF had some good points and a lot of bad points. I don't think the style will endure as some seem to believe. It's not that great. I think what you're really saying is that you're not that great. A poor workman blames his tools. Yeh, I know, RD How do you know me? what you do is different. I should hope so. It would be a boring world if everything were all the same. Geoff Crossman and company have it all sorted out. I used to say the same thing but I've been through enough apprentice masters that I've become a little skeptical on that one. Geoff Crossman used to train at my club in Mississauga before he got tranferred out do to armed forces responsibilities. At least I think that is why he went. Nice guy, blue belt when I met him. No doubt he's improved. Yes I know him. Why bring his name into this discussion? I guess at the end of the day if a person is happy with the style and teachers he trains with then keep training there. Thanks. I will. TKF may be no more but that does not eliminate the fact many people feel scammed out of their money. Yes ok. Some people feel scammed. Some actually were. I've heard many stories of TKF business practices. I know some lowlifes who were chiefs who would actually boast about how they had scammed people. I got no use for people like that. I'm glad they aren't teaching anymore -- at least I hope not. I wouldn't be surprised if they found another outlet for their contemptable behavior. Some advice for you: let go of the past. TKF is gone. You can't change what's happened, you're just becoming a bitter old man. RD

Rd, Which facility are you referring to? We train at Mellinium Place in Sherwood Park now. It's a multi-million dollar family recreation, fitness, and sports complex. So no, my monthly payment (less than the cost of a YMCA gym membership) doesn't even begin to pay for running the Mellinium Place facility. As for the pockets of the owners, which owners would you be referring to? Your correct that the single $40 payment doesn't not cover the cost anything really but the group as a whole (customers/students) does or at least should cover the cost plus extra. Now this "extra" is personal profit and from I know of the Boxing, MMA, Muay Thai schools in Ontario it goes back to the student in training equipment (Heavy bags, Pads, ropes...) Also with poor business, marketing and networking skills the club will fail which seems to be the TKF way. Now for the owners I have no clue who you train with and who you give money to... so you would have to answer this question, not me. Really? There's a lot of clubs out there. You're familiar with them all are you? mmm.... now that doesn't sound right at all. No I'm not familiar with all schools excepet for the Wrestling, Boxing, MMA and Muay Thai schools in Onatrio (we are all a very close nit in a struggle to legalize MMA here) and none of them expect donations from it's students except for TKF. In the Martial Art community here it's no secret of TKF martial art business practices, no one wants to be associated with them.

RD
RD, you seem a little touchy about the subject of TKF. Who's bitter? You hear what you want to hear. I simply don't care about TKF. I know what I saw and my opinion is based on experience. 10 years of experience. Certainly not 17 but more than enough experience. You might want to actually train with someone in person before you cast aspersions on their skill level. I didn't start training at TKF and began training a new style immediately after leaving. My comments were directed at Simon and his donations. Your response was an attack on me. As to the pagoda, are you saying they built the replica of the pagoda that was photoshop'd into the landscape scene on the website? The actual pagoda from Japan? That thing must be huge! My mistake because when my friend went to visit just before I left TKF it wasn't up yet. I suggest you are the one who needs to let it go. You say TKF is gone but the hyper-defensive attitude remains alive and well with you. I mentioned G Crossman because last I heard he was in charge of what was going on in Alberta, which would mean he's teaching you. Why not mention him? Did he not take over as an apprentice master when the organization fell apart? Anyway, I study something else now so the system is all yours. Enjoy.

Hello, In the Martial Art community here it's no secret of TKF martial art business practices, no one wants to be associated with them. TKF no longer exists, so your comment is meaningless, and gramatically incorrect. you seem a little touchy about the subject of TKF Yes I'm getting a little tired of hearing about them. Aren't you? I simply don't care about TKF Good! Me neither. They don't exist anymore. Lets see how long we can go without mentioning them. Your response was an attack on me. Huh???? As to the pagoda, are you saying they built the replica of the pagoda that was photoshop'd into the landscape scene on the website? The actual pagoda from Japan? That thing must be huge! My mistake because when my friend went to visit just before I left TKF it wasn't up yet. You really have no idea do you. I suggest you are the one who needs to let it go. Ok I will. I mentioned G Crossman Please don't. I doubt he has much interest in what goes on on this site. So you're talking about him behind his back. If you had an issue with him, you had ample opportunity to take it up with him when he was involved in TKF. Anyway, I study something else now so the system is all yours. Enjoy. Bye. RD

RD....
I was going to leave this one alone as any exchange with RD is pointless. Many people who have experienced training at TKF are of the opinion it was very much a cult. RD proves this point. For the record, I have never had any issue with G Crossman. To quote myself: "Nice guy, blue belt when I met him. No doubt he's improved. I guess at the end of the day if a person is happy with the style and teachers he trains with then keep training there." How do you get I had an issue with him from this comment. Your twist on what I said is strange. FYI, in another thread on this topic posted by Swanstrom re the 2007 restructure G Crossman's name is on it indicating he signed it. He has also taken responsibilty for running the exisiting organization. Seems he actually is interested in this site as a means of communication. RD, you started training at TKF and you're sticking with it, in your attitude and MA style. It will always be TKF as will you. BTW, if you have a picture of the giant pagoda send it on.

Hello, I see you rose to my challenge and went for a whole seven hours without bringing up TKF! :wink: I was going to leave this one alone as any exchange with RD is pointless. Many people who have experienced training at TKF are of the opinion it was very much a cult. Many don't. Opinions are like bumholes, everybody's got one... When a vocal minority loudly express an opinion, it doesn't automatically become a fact. RD proves this point. Now you're talking about me in the third-person like I'm not here. Passive/aggressive remarks do nothing to support your argument. FYI, in another thread on this topic posted by Swanstrom Mr Swanstrom has already stated that he doesn't keep up with this web site on a regular basis (he only has a dailup internet connection). He has posted his home phone number if you want to discuss anything with him. Have the decency not to talk about him behind his back. You claim you "simply don't care about TKF", yet you sure seem to have a hard time leaving it alone. TKF has closed its doors and is gone. Let it go. I think it's time for you to stop obsessing and move on with your life. RD

View Full Version: PHS DONATIONS/ TEMPLE LAND