Multiple Attackers

It completely escapes me how someone could say that being attacked by multiple attackers is unrealistic, impossible or could not happen. Learning how to deal with the situation is sometimes about how to get out of the situation without fighting. This by the way is your best option should the opportunity present itself. This should not even have to be mentioned it's so obvious. If the goal of your training if for tournament fighting like many of the people who post here, self-defence is not your focus and that's fine. Or if you are more about ground fighting, I can see why you would not train against multiple opponents it's a perceived weakness in those systems. If your goal is self-defence your missing a key set of skills if you do not train these scenarios. Just like knife defence you don't want to be in that situation and you exhaust all other options. If you have to fight to save your life you do and you give it all you got and hope for the best. No amount of training guarantees a positive outcome in any situation but the harder you train the better your chances, and that is all we are trying to do with self-defence, give yourself the best possible chance to get out alive. If you guys that claim to be training self-defence have not learned these very basic principles then I suggest you rethink what your training is accomplishing. For you guys that don't train self-defence well this argument isn't really even about you.

Hello Current Student, You posted, “It completely escapes me how someone could say that being attacked by multiple attackers is unrealistic, impossible or could not happen.” Also, “If you guys that claim to be training self-defence have not learned these very basic principles then I suggest you rethink what your training is accomplishing. “ With all due respect; Why don’t you post some of these principles here? You know…just basic tips: like moving so that only one attacker can come at you at once or taking the fight to your opponents before they are ready Maybe make a vid or two on this and post one tip a week? (Just a thought.) Regards, MrE2Me2

I'm not a huge fan of internet training in martial arts. I don't think it would do anyone any good with my feeble attempts to describe any principals in detail here. The basics of it are: Funnelling (separate and block attackers so they are attacking one at a time) Environmental awareness (use your environment to your advantage use whatever is there.) Biggest threat first.(or take out the leader first and fast. first guy goes down fast will make the others think twice) Avoid going to the ground (on the ground you are toast and fast) diffuse your vision try and take in all things (good for any situation) Keep your escape route open. (very important to not let yourself get cornered and if you are to fight your way to your escape) Finish off your attackers quickly and completely. (if 3 guys jump you and the first guy gets back up again it's like fighting 4. you have to remove each attacker from the scenario.) Know when you need to start fighting. (best if you get the first strike in) Be ferocious. ( if you are calm and tenacious it will do a lot to unnerve your attackers. Your mindset is key to survival) Never quit (most important goes without saying) There are a number of skills that are useful in multiple attacker situations that have little value in one on one fights. Different ways of misdirecting using opponents as shields or rams etc. Some of them you've no doubt seen before. Good practise is circle sparring where your next attacker comes in before you have finished dealing with the first second or third. I may have missed some stuff but that's what come to mind for now.

Hello Current Student, You posted, “I'm not a huge fan of internet training in martial arts.” Well, I don’t really consider this actual training. I think of it as more like an information exchange. You posted, “I don't think it would do anyone any good with my feeble attempts to describe any principals in detail here.” It would do me some good…I’m open to interesting ideas. Besides, this is a good conversation. You posted no less than 12 ideas for use against multiple attackers. They are as follows (if I may be so bold as to paraphrase): “1. Funneling 2. Environmental awareness 3. Biggest threat first 4. Avoid going to the ground 5. Diffuse your vision 6. Keep your escape route open 7. Finish off your attackers quickly and completely 8. Know when you need to start fighting 9. Be ferocious 10. Never quit 11. Using opponents as shields 12. Using opponents as rams” And then you suggest an exercise. “Good practise is circle sparring where your next attacker comes in before you have finished dealing with the first second or third.” Nice Post! Regards, MrE2Me2

To all, Current Student posted 12 basic tips on dealing with multiples. Here they are in a manner that I can remember them easier. 1. Before the attack (as well as during and after) A. Environmental awareness B. Diffuse your vision 2. Basic tactics A. Funneling B. Biggest threat first 3. Where to be A. Avoid going to the ground B. Keep your escape route open 4. What to do (and when) A. Finish off your attacker quickly and completely B. Know when to start fighting 5. Spirit required A. Be ferocious B. Never quit 6. Specific to multiples A. Using opponents as shields B. Using opponents as rams That is 2 B’s and 2 W’s and 2 S’s Or perhaps another way to think of them: “Dealing with multiples is never a breeze, Instead, it’s a BWEESE” Regards, MrE2Me2

Current Student I'm not a huge fan of internet training in martial arts. I don't think it would do anyone any good with my feeble attempts to describe any principals in detail here. I will agree with Mr . E2Me2 on this one. It is information exchange.. I do like your list however. Master Tallbear, from the Tai Liu Chuan fa system of kung fu has a saying. "COMMON SENSE IS SELF DEFENSE" The list you bring forth, is a large part common sense. And I very much like the way you have laid it out. If the goal of your training if for tournament fighting like many of the people who post here, self-defence is not your focus and that's fine. Or if you are more about ground fighting, I can see why you would not train against multiple opponents it's a perceived weakness in those systems. If your goal is self-defence your missing a key set of skills if you do not train these scenarios. Just like knife defence you don't want to be in that situation and you exhaust all other options Just want to point out, that a club that competes in tournaments, or trains ground fighting does not nessesarily have to lack in the self defence area. You pointed out your mind set is essential for survival. If a person is not involved in a job such as law enforcement, security, or bouncing, developing that mindset may not be an easy thing. Not everyone is born with a killer instinct. Tournamnets are a good way to train people for that mindset. A Dojo can train you for the physical part of a conflict, but not neccesarily the psychological part. When you train and spar with the same people people all the time, you get comfortable. It becomes fun. Which is good. And you can become very good at the physical aspect of Martial Arts training. But real time confrontation's have made many martial artists freeze, because they have not trained for the "fear factor" of a confrontation. They have missed the psychological part of dealing with a confrontation . Tournaments are a small, small portion of the martial world. But I feel they are an important part of pychological training. I tell my students if they compete, it will be the best thing they can do for themeselves, because they have to work through fear, butterflys, nervousness. And I agree with you on the groundfighting part with one proviso. Training strictly groundfighting will leave you very limited yes. But (and this is my proviso) not training groundfighting will also leave you very limited.. Imagine being at a family( or highschool) reunion, or a wedding, or a staff christmas party. And a friend, co-worker, or brother in law ( and oh yes we all have the drunken brother in law :lol: ) gets hammered and starts causing problems... a person with no grappling experience is left with what ???? Kick him, punch him, drop him for being stupid??? Seems kind of extreme. I like to have a few options. shawn

Master Tallbear, from the Tai Liu Chuan fa system of kung fu has a saying. "COMMON SENSE IS SELF DEFENSE" I agree, it is a large part of the formula. The list you bring forth, is a large part common sense. And I very much like the way you have laid it out. Yes a sensible person could probably come up with most of this without much effort. When the mind is calm it's easy to think of sensible things, however during a conflict reason often shuts off. It's during these time you must rely on your training. So yes common sense is important but don't expect to have access to it during a stressful situation. That's why preparation is important. If the goal of your training if for tournament fighting like many of the people who post here, self-defence is not your focus and that's fine. Or if you are more about ground fighting, I can see why you would not train against multiple opponents it's a perceived weakness in those systems. If your goal is self-defence your missing a key set of skills if you do not train these scenarios. Just like knife defence you don't want to be in that situation and you exhaust all other options Just want to point out, that a club that competes in tournaments, or trains ground fighting does not nessesarily have to lack in the self defence area. You pointed out your mind set is essential for survival. Yes and no. I agree that any form of combative training helps prepare you for self defence. I even think gymnastics would help. Tournaments would help to expose you to more varied attacks. Controlling the competitive anxiety will help control your mind. So in that way they would be helpful. Helpful yes but it's not the same emotions you will have to control in a self defence situation. In a tournament you are fighting for prestige in self defence you are fighting for your life. Your attackers have a different agenda also. If a person is not involved in a job such as law enforcement, security, or bouncing, developing that mindset may not be an easy thing. Not everyone is born with a killer instinct. Tournamnets are a good way to train people for that mindset. A Dojo can train you for the physical part of a conflict, but not neccesarily the psychological part. There is a myth that People in law enforcement are well trained combatants. Same as there is a myth that the police are good marksman. True they do receive training but the basic training is not that extensive. They are taught what they need to know. Some individuals pursue more extensive training with their own time, which is a good idea in my mind. But many also do not. Mind you it goes without saying there are many positions that do not require those skills also. When you train and spar with the same people people all the time, you get comfortable. It becomes fun. Which is good. And you can become very good at the physical aspect of Martial Arts training. But real time confrontation's have made many martial artists freeze, because they have not trained for the "fear factor" of a confrontation. They have missed the psychological part of dealing with a confrontation . Exactly! This is a point that many people who train do not understand. When they find themselves in one of these situations they are paralysed unable to act because they have done no mental training to prepare themselves. Tournaments are a small, small portion of the martial world. But I feel they are an important part of pychological training. I tell my students if they compete, it will be the best thing they can do for themeselves, because they have to work through fear, butterflys, nervousness. I respectfully disagree for the reasons I mentioned above. Tournaments situations are not the same as self defence. In self defence if you lose you die. You are battling fear not anxiety. If you lose a tourney so what. Your mind has an easier time accepting a loss, not the same factors that will paralyse you to the point you are afraid to act. It's very important to understand the difference between anxiety and fear. For some people they have such a poor ability to manage anxiety it transforms into fear and that further confuses things. The other important factor which is really counter productive to self defence is that tournaments have rules. There is a list of forbidden strikes and targets that are critical for self defence. In a tourney you have to train to no do these things by reflex where as in self defence it is imperative that you can do them without thinking, totally by reflex. If you get jumped and caught off guard you need to respond (by reflex) with the most effective move. Not the most effective move under tournament rules. Although I will concede it is possible a tourney sanctioned move may suffice in some situations. And I agree with you on the groundfighting part with one proviso. Training strictly groundfighting will leave you very limited yes. But (and this is my proviso) not training groundfighting will also leave you very limited.. my comment on ground fighting was in the context of a multiple attacker scenario where you do not want to be on the ground no matter how well trained you are. But yes I agree. Imagine being at a family( or highschool) reunion, or a wedding, or a staff christmas party. And a friend, co-worker, or brother in law ( and oh yes we all have the drunken brother in law :lol: ) gets hammered and starts causing problems... a person with no grappling experience is left with what ???? Kick him, punch him, drop him for being stupid??? Seems kind of extreme. I like to have a few options. shawn I agree but that's not really what i was talking about. I trained with Tony Blauer before I started with TFK. Not sure how much you know about him. He's the founder of the Chu Fen Do system and the S.P.E.A.R. system. He is one of the preeminent self defence experts alive today. What started him down this road was from his personal experience. He had trained for many years and was a sucessful tournament fighter. He was very confident in his skills and abilities. THen one day he found himself in a self defence situation. If I recall correctly he was mugged. Anyway he froze, he was completely paralysed with fear and was unable to act. Afterwards he was so embarrassed by what transpired he began to look into conflict psychology. If your curious to find out more about him I suggest you look up some of the many articles he has published. You can find many of them on the internet even. If the training does not parallel the situation that you are likely to find yourself in then you may suffer - a lot. A street attack is very different from any type of contact spar. -Tony Blauer Being ambushed or forced to fight is entirely different than agreeing to fight at a given time and place and agreeing to rules and protective gear and so on and so on. A lot of martial artists just don't get it. -Tony Blauer

To all, Just adding my two more cents here. I saw a story on the news tonight. I month ago here in B.C. a young man walks out of a birthday party. He was a gentle young man who was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Worse, he was unaware and unprepared. Several other young men are waiting. They blinded him with bear spray. Then they knocked him down with a bottle. Then they used an axe. He’ll never walk again. Here I sit in the comfort of my home. I am surrounded by weapons that I can use well. I have amazing abilities I can call upon if needed. And allies, who can and will fight, are but a holler away. Tonight, in the dead of night, I am safe and sound. Yet, merely typing this story out raises my blood pressure and infuriates me. If he had even the most basic self defense skills, things might be different. Regards, MrE2Me2

Current Student, I spent 30 minutes typing a big long speech that was designed to make you see my point of view. Then I realized it is irrelevant,and self serving, and deleted it all. We will both train and prepare ourselves physically and mentally for combat in a way that suits our individual needs. As a student of the arts, I always wish the best for a fellow martial artist, especially when they are in a real time situation. May your training always keep you safe. sifu shawn P.S. I Wish I had have come up with that 30 minutes ago :lol:

To all, Sifu Shawn posted, “But real time confrontation's have made many martial artists freeze, because they have not trained for the "fear factor" of a confrontation. They have missed the psychological part of dealing with a confrontation .“ Current Student then posted, “Exactly! This is a point that many people who train do not understand. When they find themselves in one of these situations they are paralysed unable to act because they have done no mental training to prepare themselves.” The way I would put it to my students simply emphasizes this point. Those who attack others have a different set of goals than a competitor. A human predator either will set out to find a target or take advantage where they can. The concept of “fair play” simple does not exist for them. Therefore I tell my people that they are likely to be attacked when they are not ready. It will be at a moment when they appear at their weakest and most unaware. For example: Their wife is sick, the job is busy and the weather is bad, so their mind is elsewhere. It is precisely at this moment that their training must stand them in good stead. As Current Student stated earlier in this thread, “Environmental Awareness” is vital. So is a willingness to drop everything and deal with the potential threat. Yet the best way to get ready to “deal with the potential threat” is when the student is up. When he or she is happy and confident is the best time to build skills. When they are down is the best time to test their self defense abilities (in my opinion). Regards, MrE2Me2

Another note on multiple attackers as I am one of the first to say it is the single most important part of Kung Fu: Train recovery situations. What I mean is things can and will happen that you can not know. Having the chance to think of these things ahead of time allows you to find counters and train them to instinct. here is an example: You deliver a front kick but fall backwards (Shoved, slip on ice, the kick is lifted etc etc) In your own time you can practice front kicks with power and have a partner lift the leg so you do indeed fall. When you fall train yourself to roll backwards right back into a horse stance. this is a little trick I found in applications to forms from Shaolin. Practiced enough times it can become instinctive and avoid a groundfight which as Current Student stated above (And I agree) is a very bad scenario. BUT with that in mind find ways out of groundfighting situations. Shaolin Sit is in my experience the best way to return to your feet when something like this happens. The best I can describe a Shaolin sit here is to sit cross legged and just twist up to a standing position. Practice getting to a cross legged sitting position from various positions on the ground. (It uses alot less energy than a kip up and keeps the hands free to keep defending/attacking) Anyhow just wanted to share that with you. If you choose to condition yourselves or not in such a way is entirely a matter of choice.

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