Moh Family Tree

Hey North, as I PM'ed to you I know who you are and understand your position. That is the problem with this sort of thing and why we avoided it to begin with.... What makes a Black Belt? I think most of us would agree it is just something that holds up your pants. Having said that, their are similar lineage trees done in other styles which is why the desire to do one for our style. EVERYONE PLEASE NOTE THE FORMAT OF THE LIST Down the center of the list are mostly higher ranks or Masters who were given these degrees directly by Grand Master O. E. Simon. Connected by lines to these Masters are BB's that these Masters personally awarded to other individuals. Some of these people never set foot in one of GM Simon's studios, or did so for a short time, but they went on to achieve their BB's training under direct descendants from this list. This list is for people who were awarded their BB's (or higher), in the style of (Moh) Kempo by higher ranked (Moh) Kempo BB's, all of whom can be traced back to GM Simon. That is the simple criteria for this list. It may not seem fair, but that is it.

Well I was a black sash and I completed learning the knowledge in the sourcebook that was knowledge from "White belt to black belt." I guess I won't be getting any mention in the Moh family tree. I tried not to let this bother me but honestly? I'm right pissed off! How many of you taught 18 temple motions last week? Last month? How many of you taught Kempo 1-2-3 and Hung 1-2-3? I did, and to more than 1 student. (Well not ALL of those exact forms in that time but you get my drift) I have been teaching Moh for over 7 years and training it for over 12. Anyhow i'm not going to contribute here anymore. Why promote an art that is essentually saying I am not even a black belt? To me, this is beyond foolish when it comes to treating those who are ongoing contibutors to Moh stylists. I have answered questions about Moh and shared opinions. This technicallity is exactly what I hated about TKF and I see the taint didn't die with the school. It has become part of the minds of those who still continue on in this style. I would call myself a 3rd degree black belt in Moh at least and anyone who says otherwise I would openly accept a challenge from. Unfortunately A) This is the internet so such things have little meaning and B) I shouldn't have to go to such lengths to prove myself. When I picture myself trying to explain this situation to one of my current students it just sickens me. I have taught Moh to students who had black belts in other arts. I guess I am a fraud though. I was good enough for TKF to pay money to to teach Moh however I didn't put up with the bullshit long enough to get that all important cotton belt. Good luck to all of you in your training and I hope this puts things in perspective for some people. It's not what you know or how good you are that matters. Just kidding those should be the only things that matter combined with how you treat others. One thing is for certain. This proves to me that any family tree or lineage created for a style has absolutely no meaning. Some of the names you will see on the above list are people who no longer even train kung fu. Some names that will never be on that list have surpassed those on the list but because of technicalities shall never be listed.

Hey North, I had just writen you another PM, but seeing as you posted here, I will reply here as well. You have contributed a huge amount to this board and it is greatly appreciated. It is your choice whether you continue to do so and I hope you do. However I'm sorry to say but a black sash at TKF meant you were an apprentice teacher not a blackbelt. Your skill may now very well be that of a second or third degree BB in Moh, maybe even your knowledge, but how can I confirm that. I do know that you left TKF well before ever being tested for Black (or Brown?) and never got into PHS. Say what you want about the silly secretive stuff (And I agree), but the fact is, it is integral to achieving your BB at TKF as a teacher and you never even saw it. A point of fact, just because you could do every technique in the knowledge books at TKF up to BB, that doesn't make you a BB. There is a lot of knowledge that goes to a BB that is not in that book, you of ALL people should know that. As for how long you have trained/ taught, we both know that those numbers are totally subjective, again I'm not saying you can't back it up, but you keep reminding us about it. What level do you tell your students you are? When they ask who ranked you what do you say? I respect all the work you put in as a trainee and instructor, it still doesn't change the fact that a MASTER did not tie a Black Belt around your waist. I am not the one to say you are not a BB. If you wear one then it is from another style. This is a Moh Kempo BB list, simple as that. Find a 2nd degree or higher BB in Moh (Or any Kempo style) and get him/her to rank you, then you are on the list. That's the way it works in every style, at least as far as getting ranked. Who really cares about this anyways, it's just a stupid list, if your skill is that good this should mean squat! Also note I am not the only one making this list, contributions to this list have come from over a dozen sources, I just put the names together. I am happy you teach Moh and hope you continue to do so, what you call it is up to you If you really want to be recognized as a BB/ Teacher in any style, find another teacher and get ranked, or get in the ring and win a few competitions, those are the only two ways I know how. If you have already done that then kudos, that's all you need. Good Luck! PS - I totally agree with your point: "Some of the names you will see on the above list are people who no longer even train kung fu. Some names that will never be on that list have surpassed those on the list but because of technicalities shall never be listed." Why these lists are almost pointless

"What level do you tell your students you are? When they ask who ranked you what do you say?" I don't recall being asked who ranked me. I tell my students the truth about my training. I avoid mentioning TKF or Moh as much as possible, mostly because of the bad PR it has. "If you really want to be recognized as a BB/ Teacher in any style, find another teacher and get ranked, or get in the ring and win a few competitions, those are the only two ways I know how. If you have already done that then kudos, that's all you need. " I fail to see how winning a competition would somehow promote me to the rank of black belt. When I left TKF I was missing some knowledge from PHS that would normally be included in a black belts training. I aquired that knowledge. I also noticed that some of the PHS I trained with after leaving didn't know some of the things I knew as they were apparently for "instructors only." 2 things to consider: 1)Simon promoted himself to blackbelt, therefor by the incredibly anal rules that somehow exist here none of his progeny should be recognized as black belts in kempo. Ability to fight does not mean a person has knowledge of a style. Not in the sense of proof. If it did he could have called himself a Hung Gar master even though he didn't know that style. 2) Before my 3rd degree brown belt testing I did not have a brown belt ranking. Yet I wore a black sash and I DID do brown belt testing. I tested 2 students for their brown belts when I had only been an instructor for something like 6-7 months. Because I was technically not yet a brown belt, I guess the 2 brown belts I awarded those students don't count? They still have the paper to state they have a brown belt ranking though. Anyhow it is a matter of technicality, and despite skill, knowledge or further education (Yes I also learned MORE kempo outside TKF's style) it seems that what gets a person's name on a list is all the wrong reasons. At least in this case. If enough TKF instructors quit at one time then a yellow belt could find himself wearing a black belt in around a year if he simply had the willingness to teach. That is the reality of TKF. So why even bother making a list? It has left me feeling incredibly insulted. If you were to physically come to my face and say I am not worthy of sharing a spot on a list of black belts in Moh Kempo we would have the oppertunity to remedy the situation through the eyes of the beholder. I understand that because this is the internet such things are impossible. I could try and explain how Locking the Thrust evolves into Tiger Locks to prove that I indeed did learn PHS after leaving but what is the point? A friendly "Hey, next time you are in Vancouver lets get together and do some training just to make sure you are not full of shit and then I'd be happy to throw your name on the list!" would have been nice. I didn't much like hearing "According to the rules of _______, on the proceedure of black belt awarding I am afraid you need certification that can be confirmed with someone of AT LEAST 2nd degree black belt before we could add you to the list." I wasn't an apprentice teacher. I was a teacher. I taught students of all levels available including brown belts. (there were no black belt students at that time in Ontario.) After one of my Chiefs, we will call him C.C. for now, left for B.C. the next Chief I worked with did nothing at all but hang out in his office due to back injuries. I was teaching all the skills classes as well as the club and sparring. On top of that I helped train 2 Jr. Instructors. So I was qualified to teach someone how to be a teacher, but apparently not wear the belt. This whole thing has just reminded me of the BS that TKF was. The Moh lineage is meaningless. I don't wish to promote it any longer, so my experience and opinions will be withheld. Sorry, I was enjoying this forum, but I feel incredibly snubbed over a technicality. I have shed tons of blood and sweat for this style and so if this is my level of recognition, why should I do anything to aid this endevor?

Hello North, I have sent you a P.M. Regards, MrE2Me2

You give me no choice... I don't recall being asked who ranked me. I tell my students the truth about my training. I avoid mentioning TKF or Moh as much as possible, mostly because of the bad PR it has. Then why do you care about being on the list so much?? 1)Simon promoted himself to blackbelt, therefor by the incredibly anal rules that somehow exist here none of his progeny should be recognized as black belts in kempo. Ability to fight does not mean a person has knowledge of a style. Not in the sense of proof. If it did he could have called himself a Hung Gar master even though he didn't know that style. Then why do you care about being on the list so much?? Before my 3rd degree brown belt testing I did not have a brown belt ranking. Yet I wore a black sash and I DID do brown belt testing. I tested 2 students for their brown belts when I had only been an instructor for something like 6-7 months. Because I was technically not yet a brown belt, I guess the 2 brown belts I awarded those students don't count? They still have the paper to state they have a brown belt ranking though... I was teaching all the skills classes as well as the club and sparring. On top of that I helped train 2 Jr. Instructors. So I was qualified to teach someone how to be a teacher, but apparently not wear the belt. It's ironic, people have posted countless times how it bothered them that junior instructors who had been ther only months would take their Brown Belt tests and lead advanced group classes, knowing full well that the instructor barely knew what he was testing/ teaching and that some of the students could could often kick the instructors ass. Now here you are saying that because you tested people for brown and lead KFC, you must be of higher rank?! The problem at TKF was the Chief instrutors/ Instructors quit so often they had no choice but to put out GREEN (Not belt colour) Instructors to do what the Chief Instructors should be doing. THAT WAS YOU! Didn't make you a Black Belt, just meant the system/ business model had major problems it seems that what gets a person's name on a list is all the wrong reasons. At least in this case. If enough TKF instructors quit at one time then a yellow belt could find himself wearing a black belt in around a year if he simply had the willingness to teach. That is the reality of TKF. So why even bother making a list? It has left me feeling incredibly insulted. If you were to physically come to my face and say I am not worthy of sharing a spot on a list of black belts in Moh Kempo we would have the oppertunity to remedy the situation through the eyes of the beholder. I understand that because this is the internet such things are impossible. I could try and explain how Locking the Thrust evolves into Tiger Locks to prove that I indeed did learn PHS after leaving but what is the point?. Look st the names on the list, name one person who was a junior instructor that was given a quicky black belt becasue the studio needed a respected Chief. I have done my best to make sure that the names on the list are teachers of Moh Kempo who trained exclusively within the sysetem for many years. There are some "off-shoot" BB names from High Ranked teachers who left TKF but continued to teach, these are people who worked directly under a high ranking Moh Kempo BB/ Master for YEARS and then were offically awarded their own BB. That is NOT you. Do you consider yourself to have the same knwoledge of Moh as any of the names on the list. You were an instructor at TKF barely a year before you QUIT. I don't care how many years you trained all your knowledge since, it wasn't under the guidance of higher ranked person within that specific style... I wasn't an apprentice teacher. I was a teacher. I taught students of all levels available including brown belts. (there were no black belt students at that time in Ontario.) True enough, but do you see any BB students on the list? Or are you comparing yourself to D.J. Swanstrom & G. Crossman, guys who trained over a decade each (almost 2) with the same style and learned directly from O. E. Simon. I don't think so. This whole thing has just reminded me of the BS that TKF was. The Moh lineage is meaningless Then why do you care about being on the list so much?? PS, Your suggestion about coming to Vancouver is a good one, not to see me though. I hasven't taught full-time for 2 1/2 years and therefor do not give out BB's. But an old school TKF Master in Surrey, Master R. Terlecki might. I'm sure there are Moh Kempo styleists in Alberta who would also be willing to rank you. It would take time and $$, but call them to find out if you really want it. Like I said to you in a PM. Within the new styles I am training, my teachers are high ranked students of other masters. Although I will know the knowledge well enough to teach it myself, I plan to get accredited/ ranked eventually, which will mean I will have to put forward the $$ to take a few lessons directly from the Masters to show I know my stuff. Guess you're in the same boat with you Moh Kempo.

So it seems that I am indeed in the same boat. I have recogniztion from other places though and honestly consider Moh to be the worst of the styles I teach/train. Why do I want to be on the list? Initially I just viewed the list and thought little about it. What really got my goat was the list you deleted that had some of my own students names listed yet still not my own. I wasn't a yellow or green belt who became an instructor. I had private lessons from Troy Sparrow when he was a fresh Chief in Calgary north. I wasn't one of the teachers the PHS would go complain about behind my back. Instead they came to me and had questions or showed a genuine interest in training together. I can list specific examples to that effect including people you know to have been brown belt PHS back in around 2000. Why do I care about being on the list so much? It is more the insult factor of being excluded from the list. That was further aggrivated by seeing names pop up that were 1st degree brown belts less than a year ago. Here I am trying to promote this art and yet if one of my own students were to look at this list they would wonder why my peers refuse to recognize me in this time when the art needs everyone who is willing to promote it so badly. I have no problem not being on the list, as I said I have recognized instructor ranking in other styles. This forum is about Moh. Why would I bust my hump to promote Moh when the few remaining activists say I am not a black belt because I didn't have a master tie one on me? I am a black belt. I have the knowledge and the skill. I think the real problem is just a matter of how do you draw a line to another name in such a case? Perhaps I should say Fu Yen awarded me my black belt? I am not going down that path. I'll simply take my advice and conversation elsewhere. I am insulted to not be on the list as one of the few remaining school owners teaching this style. Nothing more. You were right about this list likely angering some people. After some time passes I guess the real issue will be was it worth it? BTW, nobody on that list has a black belt. NONE. Simon wasn't awarded his belt by a 2nd degree or higher black belt and the investigations into his supposed belt awarded by Ed Parker lead to responses that he WAS NOT awarded any belt by Parker that can be verified by any source other than Simon says. Actually this part IS true. None of those people on that list who trained only in Moh even know Kung Fu! Temple Kung Fu is NOT recognized as a Kung Fu school in the eyes of other masters. You can go ask them. They will call it Karate. If you go ask karate school owners if TKF is Karate they will not say it is Kung Fu or Karate. They will just say it is incomplete and pieced together by a madman. Good luck to you all.

To all, I just got off the phone with Grasshopper. He asked me to post this because he won’t be near his computer for some time. There has been a Great Deal of controversy over this list and subsequent Moh family tree. The main rub for most people has been a severe lack of quality control. Grasshopper and North have had a rather impassioned discussion over this. Grasshopper has come up with an alternate idea instead of the list or the tree. The idea of the Black Belt was (and is) such a sensitive issue. Therefore, we are just going to step back from it. Instead, he is going to work on a Moh lineage tree that would not make reference to rank (mostly). Outside of Certified Masters and Grandmasters of Moh, there would be no reference to rank. The NEW tree would promote and identify any and all those who promote the art of Moh. This would apply on and off the web. Wadda think? Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Thanks MrE2Me2 for your help with this. North, you are upset and I will take your comments with a grain of salt. I think we will agree, no matter where Simon learned his art, Moh Kempo is his style. It is a hybrid of other styles yes, but the end result, including the teaching system and business model is his. He competed to gain credibilty, later referreed and in doing so proved his knowledge and ability. So I think he therefor is allowed to determine who is a Black belt and/ or Master and who is not, within his style. North, as someone who runs their own school you should understand this. You use the same arguements to discredit him (us), as you do to give yourself validity. You can't have it both ways. REGARDING THE LIST I make no apologies for the "Black Belt/ Moh Kempo Tree" and how it was compiled. However it is not the hierarchy of Moh Kempo we want to promote on this forum. From another post I made on a different thread: "North, like you said, many on this list have had their skill fade away over time while others not on the list have far surpassed the ability of those on it. The list on this thread should not be used as an indication of peoples present ability and possibly should be done away with. It's simply a list of people who recieved their Black Belt at TKF or in the style of Moh Kempo, whether they were deserving or not, or have maintained their skill or not, or continue to promote the style or not is not the point of it." So having said that we will ultimately be doing away with the Black Belt last as it stands right now. Instead we will create a similar "Moh Kempo Lineage Tree" that will show indivduals who attained a high skill and/ or maintain and teach the art of Moh Kempo, irrigardless of "Belt" level. The issueing of Black Belts is very arbitrary and not consistant enough to be used as our measuring stick. Even with this change we will not please everyone. People will still be unhappy. This is the Martial Arts community, and we all know when it comes to ranking not everyone ever agrees. NOTE - It took us a while to compile the present "Tree" and the new one will be a little while in coming, so for now we will leave the present list up as it exists and would like more feedback from other people. Cheers grasshopper

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