RD, yes Ken Lay was charged and found guilty, so I guess with your logic he is a man of little honour. Strangely enough, Hitler was never actually charged with anything, should I then conclude he was an honourable man, what does your logic tell you? I mean Hitler never did anything to you, did he? Don't misunderstand, I am not comparing GMS to Hitler, nor was I comparing Gms to Ken Lay, just the flaw in your reasoning.

RD

To all, I started this list because I was hoping to create a positive source of inspiration. I wanted all the students of Mo to be proud of those who made it to Black Belt rank. That changed almost immediately. The following is my opinion. It is based on all that I have seen and read (on and off line) Everyone who has left TKF/SKS has done so with a negative attitude…everyone. And that is too bad (again, in my humble opinion). As a matter of fact: It is this forum which is one of the few places that Mo students of different eras talk. Now this attitude is not restricted to the students of Mo. But I had hoped to create a thread that would dispel some of the negativity here. Unfortunately, Instead this thread has turned into something else. Some of you are still very, dare I say it, “pro-TKF”. And there are others who are very “anti-TKF”. Most of us, on this forum, fall somewhere in the middle. I don’t see any of us changing our stance here. I think the best we can hope for here is to agree to disagree. Once more: I would hope that we could, once again, return to the history of Mo. I mean, look at another M.A. like Ed Parkers system(s). His black belts still acknowledge each other. Even though they did not train in the same era. And in some cases are not even training with one another today. Yet they still acknowledge the existence of each other, as Black Belts under GMEP! Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

I agree with MrE2Me2. There is another thread about GMS please discuss him there. I liked this thread because it was talking about past black belts. It brought back some memories about those times. Although there doesn't seem to be to many people around the Richard Shergold era in the 80's mostly. Richard Shergold was a good instructor the only thing I could see a flaw in him was he was/is searching for the ultimate system back then. I just hope that he finally found a system he is content with.

I was re-reading this thread and noticed that RD removed (edited), all his posts. Wonder what that was all about? :wink: PS - I kinda miss TKFBS. ven though he was a flamer, his posts made me chuckle a lot :twisted:

Grasshopper said: I was re-reading this thread and noticed that RD removed (edited), all his posts. Wonder what that was all about? Since you asked.. I felt (rightly or wrongly) that I was being deliberately baited into an argument for someone's amusement. I had just withdrawn myself from participation in the network 54 crap site and was called all kinds names in an attempt to draw me back in. It seemed that the idea of anonymously posting on the internet could only lead to insults, threats and challenges. Anonymity is a double-edged sword. I also came to an epiphany yesterday. If you folks want to start awarding yourselves virtual black belts on this internet website, go ahead and knock yourselves out. It means nothing to me. Being included in a list made up by someone known only as "Grasshopper" is not much of an achievement. I'm guessing that most of the people on your list don't know or care about it. Some of them probably aren't even real. Anonymously giving out pretend black belts to pretend people -- I don't see any harm in that. Have fun guys. :wink: RD

Hello RD, You posted, “I felt (rightly or wrongly) that I was being deliberately baited into an argument for someone's amusement.” While I can understand how you might come to that conclusion; no one was trying to do that. On the issue of black belts in the Moh system, tempers flare. And it’s easy to read more into something than was meant. I also used to lurk on the other sites, upon occasion. All too often there was way too much venting and trash talking. Reasoned debate was impossible, as was any searching for the truth. This forum represents the first time, online, that the students of Moh can talk politely. Other systems talk politely, we should be able to, as well. Also, all too often, different eras of students would not be able, or willing, to converse. For the first time, online, different eras of students of Moh are getting together. You posted, “If you folks want to start awarding yourselves virtual black belts on this internet website, go ahead and knock yourselves out.” I don’t recall anyone awarding themselves a virtual black belt on this website. Certainly claims were made and disputed and debated. At least one person has been removed from the list. And as a result, at least one forum member no longer posts. You posted, “Being included in a list made up by someone known only as "Grasshopper" is not much of an achievement.” Your opinion is noted (and no, I’m not being sarcastic). On some martial arts forums, nicknames and hidden I.D.’s are the only way some will post. There was so much hatred, fear and bitterness on the old forums. It is really amazing that anyone comes here to post at all. Also, there is this: That list and the subsequent tree are the work of several people. Many on that list have volunteered information for them specifically. You posted, “I'm guessing that most of the people on your list don't know or care about it.” The opposite of this is also true; there are several who do know and care. So far, this forum has an average of over 223 views a day! You posted, “Some of them probably aren't even real.” If you have information to that effect, please let us know. You posted, “Anonymously awarding pretend black belts to pretend people…” Again, no one has awarded black belts nor has anyone pretended. Why do you have such a problem with this idea? Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Hello MrE, you said: Why do you have such a problem with this idea? I don't. It all seems like harmless fun. So go ahead, knock yourselves out. Since you're not even prepared to back up your lists with a real person's name, the lists are as meaningless as 99.9% of the fluff posted anonymously on the intermet. Go nuts. Make all the lists you want. And have a happy Easter. I think the Easter Bunny ought to be on one of your lists. :) RD

Hello RD, I asked why you have such a problem with this list. You responded by saying that you did not. And yet you think that the Easter bunny should be on the list. Further, you call the list “meaningless” and you infer that, “It all seems like harmless fun”. Now I assume you are being sarcastic here (in part). But even if you are serious, there are certain points you seem to be unaware of. The first point about this forum: By posting the first initial and full last name, we save ourselves a lot of potential legal hassle. This is the same reason that I end my posts the way I do. It is also why I respond to all posts here in a serious manner. Many other systems of martial arts have several forums where people post regularly. This forum to Moh Kempo is the only one that still posts regularly and often. The other Moh forums were usually nasty and unpleasant. This one is polite (for the most part). The second point about this forum: You obviously do not care for what happens here but others do. As I said earlier, there is an average of over 223 views of this forum every single day. Even if there are only 20 people view each thread over 10 times, that is still 20 people. I personally believe that there are more but it really doesn’t matter. I am interested in what I read and what I post about Moh Kempo. And when I see someone post sarcastic and flip comments, I respond. The third point about this form: Many on this forum are trying to piece together the history of Moh Kempo. The “company line” aside, there is over 40 years of history that is addressed on this forum. For so long, it was a bad thing to talk about Moh. Now that I can shout out to the world about Moh Kempo, I do. If I could get all students of Moh to do the same, I would. The fourth point about this forum: Many of us want to train and talk about Moh Kempo as we practice it now. This art is quite fascinating and frankly, I could post about it all day long. It works better when I’m posting to like minded individuals. Even by Olaf’s admission, he trained virtually by himself when he was younger. Until the opening the first Simon Kung Fu Studios in Calgary, he was nearly alone. There just weren’t that many others to train with (that would open their doors to outsiders). Those of us who have trained in a studio setting, learned differently than he did when he was younger. In closing, I do not regard the posts as “harmless” nor do I regards the lists as pretend. A lot of people left S.K.S. / T.K.F. with bitterness and rancor in their hearts. Certain Grandmasters and their presidents would not address these issues responsible (in my opinion). This forum is a way for some of us to achieve closure on these things. It is also a way for some of us to connect with others about an extraordinary martial art. (It isn’t practice, it’s talking about practice.) Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Hello Mr E, you said: And yet you think that the Easter bunny should be on the list. :lol: Lighten up my friend. You are taking yourself and this forum/website far too seriously. I'm sorry about the Easter bunny comment. RD

I believe I see both sides of the fence on this one. RD is correct in that the actual value of this list might not even justify the work being done. But who knows, it could become a very valuable resource in the future for some people. Scenario wise imagine an orange belt or green belt that always wanted to learn 18 Temple Motions but TKF closed down before they had the chance. Or perhaps they moved years ago but still want to pick up that form to add to their training. The list would provide a number of people they could contact to learn that form. This forum would be the most valuable tool for them to use in actually tracking down someone close to them who could share that knowledge. In that example this forum and the list helps the practitioners of the Moh system continue to learn and grow as a style. I think alot of people believe the style is worthy of saving/evolving so this forum exists and the list exists. MrE2Me2 is one of the key figures spearheading this operation and organizing this set up. In his shoes he has to take it seriously. RD doesn't have to take it seriously because it doesn't affect him in any way. This is just a place where he can come and relax while chatting about a Kung Fu style he knows alot about. btw, the Easter Bunny already has a Masters Sash in 6 animal style kung fu. ;) That is how he is able to move so quickly and carry so many chocolates all over the world. I once heard a rumor that he and Santa were in a bar. Santa picked a fight and ran out of the bar leaving the Easter Bunny to defend himself against 20 attackers alone. He bribed them with chocolate. ;)

Yeah, I've seen it in action. That little thing is ferocious. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0bdWlRtCF0 :D

Hello Grasshopper, you said: Like almost everyone else here (yourself included), we don't use our real/ full names for our internet/ forum monikers Mr. Swanstrom uses his real name. I think that speaks volumes about his credibility. If he were to post a list, well then it would be attributed to a real person. You could confirm it by giving him a call (he also posts his phone number). My real name is on the Moh Lineage tree For real? You mean you created a website, put a list on it, and (gasp!) your name just happens to be on it???? Well there's a surprise! :wink: it should be fairly obvious who I am if you don't already know. Well for those of us who don't, please do tell... :roll: Without prejudice ( Although after re-reading some of my recent postings, I suppose I could tone it down a bit. The avatar with the middle finger extended doesn't help -- it's not a gesture I use, and certainly doesn't reflect my attitude toward anyone reading this website. ) I do enjoy this website. Keep it going. You guys are awesome! While browsing the internet, it's a pleasant surprise to find "cup of coffee compatible" websites like this one. It's also refreshing to find people talking about the style I train, in a positive way. Happy holidays. RD

To all, North, you posted, “I believe I see both sides of the fence on this one.” Specifically, “MrE2Me2 is one of the key figures spearheading this operation and organizing this set up. In his shoes he has to take it seriously. RD doesn't have to take it seriously because it doesn't affect him in any way. This is just a place where he can come and relax while chatting about a Kung Fu style he knows alot about.” Thank you, it is nice to receive outside clarification, once in a while. Your attempts at levity are also appreciated. :-D Grasshopper, you posted to RD, “As an aside, most people know who I am. "grasshopper" is simply my handle. Like almost everyone else here (yourself included), we don't use our real/ full names for our internet/ forum monikers My real name is on the Moh Lineage tree, and it should be fairly obvious who I am if you don't already know. It has also been mentioned on this (and the other crappy forum), several times You may be right about most people who are on the list not really caring... but we all seem to care, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it, so it is obvously worth something to some people, good or bad. PS - Thanks for coming back.” Ditto on that! 92, your further attempts at humor are also appreciated (and so is that awesome vid). RD, you have posted yet another reason for this forum to continue to succeed. Specifically (and I quote), “:-D ” Regards, MrE2Me2