Mo Kempo Black Belt Family Tree

Hello RD, You are not the only one who gets impassioned here :-D Picture me taking a step back. I agree with Sifu Shawn’s view here. This list is not a who’s who or who’s better. I started this list with a rather light hearted tone. That is why I call it; “The Mo Pai Kempo Kung fu Black Belt Family Tree House” Or “MPKKBBFTH” for short. Sifu Shawn posted about an alliance of Mo students. It was with this in mind that I started this thread. I’d rather cooperate than continue to pick apart each other’s posts. (There, I’ve grasped the olive branch that you have extended towards me.) Regards, MrE2Me2 p.s., Regarding your dancing banana: your sig changes every 10 posts. I rather like that, although I am sometimes in a hurry to post past a particular sig.

I think that the issues you have (RD), with the black belt list could also be applied to other BB lists from other teachers and schools. This could be for many reasons, lack of updated info, poor records, infighting & politics, lack of caring This is not isolated to Moh Kempo, yet they have BB lists and we do not. I think you are making a mountain out of a mohill. This is a work in progress. If someone complains and wants to be removed, let them contact us directly and we shall remove them. Likewise if we are missing people, then tell us who they are so we can add them... If it makes you happy and MrE2Me2 wants to change it then we can change the title, but then what would be the point. Having said that... I agree that there are a lot of fringe Black Belts that have been awarded and it would "water" down the pool to try and include everyone. When I contemplated doing this list myself months ago, I was thinking more of a Moh Kempo Masters list, (or close to Masters list) The list would be much shorter but carry more "wieght". This is also why I originally removed myself from the list.

I see what RD is saying. I know there are a lot of BB that are not on your list and I'm pretty sure most of them prefer it that way. Having a black belt is not about the paper certificate or being able to tell your friends you are a bad ass or even the cloth around your waist. If this is going to be compiled I'd rather it was done with some authority not haphazardly slapped together on an internet forum from a bunch of people's recollection. There cannot help but be many mistakes made and will only server to assemble an incomplete history when there is no necessity to do so. The idea of coloured belt rankings comes from Judo as you well know. Sometimes I wish there were no belt rankings as some people carry around the idea that once you achieve you BB you have arrived when the real truth is you've just begun. What is the significance of a BB? Really it's just another belt rank. There are browns that are more skilled than some blacks heck I've even seen some blue belts that were none too shabby. And we all know there are people who have BB that we are not sure deserve them. I guess I can't really see the value in this unless the people in the tree feel to have one. I don't recall hearing anyone on that list say it was something they wanted.

My Goodness, Current Student I don't understand, You don't seem to mind the spotty history of GMS, yet when Grasshopper goes to the trouble to research into the history of TKF, it bothers you! MrE2Me2, Sifu Shawn and Grasshopper have all achieved a measure of rank in the same system, though in different times and by different teachers. Collectively they possess,IMO, a good history on the system. Myself, I am very interested in the history. For anyone that has spent a number of years studying Simon's system, they should be interested! Even though I no longer train the style, it will always be there with me. I can't change history, or make up a nice sounding one :wink: So I want to know, where does this style come from, what were it's influences? If understanding the history can help one piece it together, is that a bad thing? Not what I said at all. And of course this is only my opinion. My concern is that this will be represented as "THE" bb tree and there is no way possible it can be. Even if you say "oh hey it's just for fun" some people will copy it to a file and represent it as official. How can you suggest that there is no way that will happen. Look at all the other sources that are misquoted in an effort to embarrass GMS. You only need to look back one post for an example. So what is the is the purpose of an unofficial bb tree that cannot hope to be complete?

To RD and Current Student, RD, you posted about being worried that this tree would become THE list. So What? So it becomes THE LIST? If someone isn’t on it they can send us their name and we’ll add it. Current Student, you posted that you did not recall anyone on that list saying it was anything they wanted. I said this and I’m on that list. I am a Mo Black Belt. Current Student, you posted that you are pretty sure that most people on that list wouldn’t want to be there. Excuse me??? How do you come up with that rational? Have you been in contact with the people on this list, about this list? Current Student, you posted, about how you’d prefer the list was compiled by someone in authority. What authority would do for you? Would it be only those people who are presently in favor with the current administration at the “NEW” TKF? In my opinion, I have encountered nothing but obstacles since I started this thread about the Mo Black Belt Tree. These obstacles have come from the “pro” TKF faction. That is represented by RD and Current Student. In my opinion, you post like the tree is some kind of threat to you. It leads me to ask the following questions. Has the “New” TKF really changed? And if you have not changed in this regard, what else has not changed? Consider me appalled. MrE2Me2 p.s, I have started a new thread to address this issue. It is called “The Incomplete List” It is a locked list of Mo Kempo Black Belts. If you know of one, PM me and I’ll add it. Why? To recognize that they exist. Is it a complete list? No, absolutely not…that is why I started it to begin with. Without prejudice E&OE

Nicely put MrE2Me2. :idea:

"Your so-called black belt list and everyone on it will become objects of ridicule. This will devalue the black belts they worked so long and hard to achieve. " How can ridicule from a few individuals devalue a Moh BB, or how can a Moh Black Belt devalue the achievement of a BB in another style? A real Black Belt would have a thicker skin and more confidence than that. Just becasue of the few haters out there, most people I know (myself included), still respect a BB no matter where it comes from. It requires dedication, discipline and effort, no matter what the style. Most people who train the art never achieve this level, so they respect it, and no-one can take it away from you once you have achieved it. IMO only you can take it away from yourself by not maintaining your training or your morals. Do you think a Moh BB is less in value than a BB in TKD? If a person really felt they had the skill of a BB it would not matter. The only ones (IMO) who are embarrassed about their BB are the ones who question their skill. Relax RD, and PM us your friends name so we can remove him from the list when it comes up, if that truly is what he wants! PS - Look at MrE2Me2's # of posts - do you really think he is going to lose interest in this forum?? Plus if we do lose interest and the haters take it over you can e-mail me, him or Sifu Shawn to come back and clean the place up. This forum is set up with way more security fail-safes than those other crappy forums so we won't let that happen.

To RD and Current Student, Current Student, you posted that you did not recall anyone on that list saying it was anything they wanted. I said this and I’m on that list. I am a Mo Black Belt. ok i stand corrected Current Student, you posted that you are pretty sure that most people on that list wouldn’t want to be there. Excuse me??? How do you come up with that rational? Have you been in contact with the people on this list, about this list? I would not say such a thing had I not. But I have to say I have not been in contact with everyone or even the majority of people on it. Current Student, you posted, about how you’d prefer the list was compiled by someone in authority. What authority would do for you? Would it be only those people who are presently in favor with the current administration at the “NEW” TKF? The internet is the lowest form of authority in these subjects. And from that internet forums are the bottom. Below that only unmoderated forums reside. To me it's like compiling information via chain letters. It's not that I don't see some value in your tree it's just compiling the information on a forum from anonymous sources poisons it for me. There is no authority no accoutablity and yet it is openly presented to the public to take and do with as they please. Will everyone who sees it realize it is flawed no. Will a lot of people view it possibly. In my opinion, I have encountered nothing but obstacles since I started this thread about the Mo Black Belt Tree. These obstacles have come from the “pro” TKF faction. That is represented by RD and Current Student. Don't draw that line. Just because we both happen to be pro-TKF and both happen to have reservations about your list. Does not make this a pro-tkf anti-tkf thing. I assure you it is not and that is an unfair statement. Nobody is stopping you from making the list. I certainly am not. I'm just stateing my opinion as to why I don't like it. RD is doing the same thing. I don't think he is stopping you either. In my opinion, you post like the tree is some kind of threat to you. It leads me to ask the following questions. Has the “New” TKF really changed? And if you have not changed in this regard, what else has not changed? Let me spell this out to you very clearly. I do not like the idea for MY OWN REASONS. I have spelled them out very clearly to you above. Now somehow because your feelings are hurt and you've obviously taken this personally, you are lashing out blaming it TKF. I frankly am insulted that you do not feel that my personal opinions cannot be seperated from TKF in any way. That if I or RD say anything it is TKF's opinion and we are not our own persons. Try this on: how would you feel if i said you only posted what grasshoper said was ok and you had to check everything with him first you don't have your own opinions you only mirror grasshopper. Only I'm more insulted because you led me to believe you were impartial. I really thought you were infact now we see some prejudice peek out. If my opinions are not welcome here just say so and I will erase this board from my memory and and never view another thread. Consider me appalled. MrE2Me2 consider me insulted.

Add J. Baker to the list of black belts, as he got his around 1993 or or so. He was the chief instructor from Winnipeg South. For a big guy he was pretty flexible. On a side note, M. Bagwell should talk about what his TKF ranking was when he left, and how fast he got his 4th degree black belt in kenpo.(for useless training, he rose through the ranks pretty quick). The guy helped open up the winnipeg studios and then quit, only to show up as a high ranked kenpoist and open up a studio across from the street. The studio didn't last more than a few(maybe 3) years before it folded. Make sure you add J. Wilkinson, and don't forget Mr. Simms, he was big and tough!!

Hello Kenpo Rocks, Welcome to the forum. And “Thank You” for the updates! If you click on “The Incomplete List”, you’ll see the modifications. Uh…I took your comment about M. Bagwell to mean that he got his Black Belt in Moh, as well. If this is not the case, please let me know. Thanks Also, I have taken the first names of the guys you mentioned out and substituted their initial. Earlier there was some mention of possible lawsuits, so I have taken this step to avoid this. No offence is intended. Regards, MrE2Me2

Uh, Kenpo Rocks dude. You are all messed up w/ hate. "and twOn a side note, M. Bagwell should talk about what his TKF ranking was when he left, and how fast he got his 4th degree black belt in kenpo.(for useless training, he rose through the ranks pretty quick). The guy helped open up the winnipeg studios and then quit, only to show up as a high ranked kenpoist and open up a studio across from the street. The studio didn't last more than a few(maybe 3) years before it folded.isting the truth." Let's straighten out this Slander fest. Bagwell was that good. Any of the high ranking masters from the past will tell you. Shergold , MacDonald, Piercy. Go ahead and ask. I have seen him beat way more seasoned martial artists. He won @ the Internationals, any of y'all done that? 4th degree was just about right . He DID NOT show up as a high ranking Kenpoist. Is 1st degree really high for you? When he switched over to Kenpo, Larry Tatum did allow him reciprocity as a Black Belt, and did make him come back several times a year until he was equivalent w/ Kenpo Black Belt standards. He did train directly under G.M. Larry Tatum for all of that time including a six month stint in Pasadena. He certainly was not rushed up the Kenpo laddder and to this day holds a 4th in Kenpo. Not very high ranking is it? You are a liar. As for the Studio going belly up. It changed location from across from wpg. south to a different location. You cannot believe how much business we got , being beside TKF. We got a lot of tkf students. The location was changed as the mall was renovating and wanting to put a theatre in where we were at. The other location started to slip as their was too many investors w/ their fingers in the pie. IMHO Mr Bagwell was a little sick of the business side of it ( TKF long term does that to a person). Larry Tatum was expanding and offered him a studio to run in California. He took it. Is there anything else I can clear up for you or are you content to smear people w/o knowing facts? J.K.

View Full Version: Mo Kempo Black Belt Family Tree