To all, I’m going to leap in here with a couple of comments and a couple of questions. My comments, About ice and bruises: I was told by both my medical physician and by more than one chiropractor about icing up a recent injury. I was also told to do so for no more than twenty minutes at a time immediately followed by another twenty minutes with rest, no ice and elevation. Now that was for a painful and recent bruise. About gardening and renovations: When I use my kung fu skills for working around the house and yard, things just go better. I hurt myself less and I’m able to go farther and faster. I have been training a long time and have found it is easy to switch my skills to gardening from Martial Arts and back again. All that being said; I use gloves for both training and others for working. My questions, These are directed to those who practice the ‘Iron Palm’. While I have heard of this training I have not engaged in it, so my questions may appear quite ignorant or silly. However, I am quite serious in asking them and would appreciate a serious reply. Does training in this cause your hands and forearms to ache for days after? (I’m kinda unclear on this particular point.) I have read of Brian Gray’s exploits as a Martial Artist, a bouncer and a musician, so I can see that training with the ‘Iron Palm’ requires extensive knowledge and applications of the correct herbs in the correct amounts. Here is my other question. What happens to those who don’t get it ‘right’ (in relation to the correct herbs in the correct amounts)? I mean how bad can it be…? Again, I mean no disrespect, I’m curious. Regard, MrE2Me2

I will speak only for the White Tiger version. There are 4 levels of Iron palm. Level one requires 4 months of daily training. one month you strike a sand bag wrapped with canvas second month Rice third cedar wood chips forth round river rocks. you must pratice 10 strikes for 1/2 hour everyday while apply Dit Da Jow. This in combination with the continual rubbing helps heal the hands. After the 4 months you only do it 5 minutes a day to keep it up. This must be combined with MANY Chi Kung forms and meditations. Level 2 takes 2 years one hour everyday PER hand And no striking is involved. you slowly slowly push your hand through water. one minute down...one minute up. THIS is very uncomfortable...and let me tell you...yours hands feel like the can go through cement after only a few short weeks. It doesn't damage your hands....but wow does it work. I mean it really really works. I even stopped sparring as gloves and pads seemed to do little to stop it...and you hit like ...well like IRON. Now as about the formulas...I have no idea. I've never gotten wrong. I've used Dit da for almost all my major injuries. it works very well. Do not do iron palm without dit da...or you will be crippled in a week.

"What happens to those who don’t get it ‘right’ (in relation to the correct herbs in the correct amounts)? " As long as you are close there should be no major complications. It is one of those things you do your best to measure out correctland the list of herbs is fairly large. No one can account for potency though and because the measurements are in weight each batch can vary slightly. The main ingredient is the rice wine (Or vodka is being used alot these days) I was told that in a pinch if you were to descover you had no jow for whatever reason you could continue your training with just the alchohol but that it is less effective. (ala slower healing) This would be a temporary measure and I only mention it to let you know that the alchohol base is the most important ingredient in the mixture. it needs that to penetrate into the hand. Similar to 'rubbing alchohol" in some ways. Your hands and forearms do not ache for days afterwards but beginner students may find their shoulders get a bit sore from the motion used to strike the bag. The hand will feel very swollon initially after training but that subsides quickly after massage and use of jow.

Hello THE, Thank you for your response. I take it that the water you mention is ‘treated’ somehow. It sounds intriguing but far beyond anything I would do, now. Do you find that you have to be more careful now that you have much harder hands? I ask because I had an instructor who had a tremendous punch and he would break things inadvertently. Regard, MrE2Me2

Hello North, Thank you for your precise response. I was asking because I once read where a fellow had to quit using a certain herb. He said it was making him go blind. (But the source of this story is highly questionable, so I didn’t know what to think.) Regards, MrE2Me2

The list of herbs is extensive and it's possible someone was having an adverse reaction to one. I have met alot of people and some of them seem to be allergic to almost everything. THE, I am curious about the water stage also. The Iron Palm I train uses beans, river rocks, iron shot as the 3 stages of progression. We do a seperate exercise using water slapping to develope correct striking for iron palm training. (The flower pattern in the water = correct strike.) Can you go into more detail? It is intriguing.

Hello THE, With respect: I'm intellectually interested. I'm not interested enough to train it. I have my hands full at the moment and no pun intended. Do you train anything else when training in your version of the 'Iron Palm'? Regards, MrE2Me2

http://www.karatebreaking.com/chinesemethod.html The above link is similar to what I have done for iron palm training, with exception using a heavy bag on its side on table. For me, it could be purely phsycological, but a good dit dat jow is crucial. I was lucky enough to have a friend I work with from Hong Kong go with me to Chinatown to translate and get the good stuff. When I first started, my hands would be swollen and joints would be stiff, but the dit dat jow seemed to work for me.