MMA vs traditional arts
The endless controversy. Which one is truly better? Or is that linear thinking? Opinions?

Who trains harder wins
Hi North, Had this discussion with a couple friends who questions why I am studying a "dead" art, when no martial arts can stand up to a MMA "all around fighter". I then explained to them that IMO that MMA is not a martial art because of exactly what North mentioned, they don't study internal energies, forms to be past down through generations etc. I also explained to them that it does not matter if the style is boxing, mma, kung fu, tkd, etc, it is who ever trains in whatever style the hardest that will win. They proceeded to say that if a martial arts guy got taken to floor by a MMA the fight would be over, I replied with that a trained martial artist would keep his distance not allow himself get taken to the ground. Secondly, most martial arts like kung fu are not sport martial arts, and we are trained not to submit a guy or be limited by space in an octagon, the training is to get yourself out of a critical situation. My theory is this who every trains harder wins. You won't see many martial artists in the octagon due to the fact that it is no longer a crowd seller as martial artists will keep their distance and as they do not want to get into a grappling situation because it is where they are not the strongest. In a street situation life is very different, when my life is on the line I will gouge the eyes, and aim everything at the throat, kick to the groin and should I happen to get into a grappling situation that I can't get out of, I will be using my teeth to rip on any artery I can find. Don't get me wrong though, I can't wait to watch UFC 67 and what I really like watching is the K-1 fighting a little more martial arts orientated. Just my opinion.

It's the weirdest thing, but the post I made above this one is invisible on my monitor screen. I mean that I can see my name and avatar there, but the message and frame are not there. What happened to it, anyone? This is the first time something like this has happened to me. Has it happened to anyone else here before, on this Forum?

I can see all the posts but the formatting is screwed up. Happens sometimes. If your screen resolution is set low you may need to scroll left or right to see some of the posts. No way to fix it, sorry

To all, I have just two basic points to make with this post. One, that Gracie jiu-jitsu works because few respect the rush, as a technique or tactic. Two, mixed martial arts is hard on the body. About the first point: In my opinion, it is the Gracie family, who are the most well known in M.M.A. circles. They have the most people who train their system world wide. Their family members compete everywhere (it would seem). I’m going to reiterate a couple of points from the other thread here. http://templekungforum.14.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=128 The guy who taught the Gracie’s their system was a fella named Maeda. Now he was not a jiujutsu practitioner. He was a prize fighter and a judoka who had been banned by the Kodokan. In effect, the governing body of the sport of Judo would not allow him to compete. Apparently he did not take this well. He taught Helio Gracie a system of martial sport. This system eventually came to be known as Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. Here is a quote that seems to keep getting lost. “In Maeda's mind, it was a smart fighter's task to keep the fight located in the phase of combat that best suited his own strengths. “ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda This sounds remarkably similar in nature to comments made on this forum Several of us have stated that we prefer to remain at a distance. Ground fighting and takedowns are not what we, in Moh, are noted for. It seems to me that the quote that gets all the press is this one. “Because Maeda's strength lay primarily in grappling, he put much effort towards finding means to efficiently close the distance between himself and fighters specialized in striking.” I am a fan of M.M.A. and I watch it a lot. The thing that strikes me about it is that a lot of fighters get taken down with a rush. Their defenses against an onrushing attacker suck. They depend upon the ref or the clinch to save them. Remove the ref or the clinch as saving graces and they are in trouble. About the second point: There was a program on T.V. the other night that dealt with M.M.A. specifically. In it there was a chiropractor who had many mixed martial artists as clients. According to him, these clients had all kinds of joint injuries. I know from my own training how easy it is to suck it up and keep going. Chronic injuries don’t always show the full extent of their damage right away. It can be years before one realizes how badly hurt they are. This happens with all sport and athletic activities to an extent. But the idea of competitive full contact mixed martial arts competition is new here. While there are some competitors who go on for years, many do not. It will be interesting to see how these people are in twenty or thirty years. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

To all, I have a bit more to say on this subject. I agree with “North” about training Kung Fu. Kung Fu is definitely for the long haul. M.M.A. does produce better fighters. And it does so quicker than most other systems. But for every advantage there is a disadvantage. That is also why one doesn’t see old M.M.A. competitors. “North” also posted about M.M.A. being a form of Pankration. “Jim” Arvantis has gone ahead and used these names too. http://www.spartanacademy.com/grandmaster/ Yet they can be quite limited in what they can do. They are primarily athletes first. (There are some exceptions to this, like Chuck Liddell.) On the other hand, we owe people like Helio Gracie some credit. It was a renegade judoka named Maeda who started this. He made the modern ground game important. Maeda also taught Helio Gracie. It was he who showed us how important the ground game could be. (And this is a game we are talking of.) He even changed the name of the game from Judo to Jiu-Jitsu. Please keep in mind that the U.F.C. represents a quantum change. Training, competing, courtesy and finances all changed. The basic idea of the U.F.C. was “could a boxer beat a wrestler”. This is very different than anything in the arts up to that point. Speaking of courtesy; I don’t hear the various champs’ trash talk. I get that only from the beginners. Once they have been around for a while, it vanishes. “North” said it best: He said that “the U.F.C. was a natural build on boxing”. It is but that makes it different from other M.A. competition. Many previous tournaments concentrated on “one encounter ends the fight”. M.M.A. concentrates on the idea that an encounter is now five minutes long. And if you survive that, you get a minute respite before you get to do it again. In essence, a competitor gets to strike or grapple continuously for 300 seconds. That is almost the opposite of what martial artists train for in street encounters. Yet there are some Moh practitioners who compete. At least one (Sifu Shawn) has entered submission bouts. So what we have learned in Moh can be modified for the octagon. It point of fact, it has. Pak Sau posted, “My theory is this who every trains harder wins.” Actually, I disagree (With Respect). It is not just conditioning which is important. The knowledge of how to fight (at a reflex level) must be there. The one thing I got from the Gracie’s was that no one knew how to fight on the ground. (No one who entered the octagon for the longest time, that is.) Once Matt Hughes had it figured out, he went out and beat the Gracie’s at their own game. And then he, in turn, was beaten by George Saint Pierre. Over Mr. St. Pierre, Mr. Hughes commented that the guy was just an all round better fighter. In other words, he had more knowledge at an instinctive level. Pak Sau also posted, “You won't see many martial artists in the octagon due to the fact that it is no longer a crowd seller as martial artists will keep their distance and as they do not want to get into a grappling situation because it is where they are not the strongest.” While this is sometimes true, it is perhaps more accurate to say that successful martial artists who enter the octagon know how to defeat a grappler. As for eye gouges. If you had agreed to enter a competition with rules, would you cheat to win? And as for street encounters…well it’s been said before. In the end, the M.M.A. will either grow (and we’ll help it) or it’ll die (cause we have found something better to watch). It is a sport and an exciting sport at that (but it’s an athletic endeavor with rules and let us never forget that). Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

To all, Here are some facts about “The U.F.C.” The Official Website is here. http://www.ufc.com/ "UFC RULES, AS APPROVED BY THE NEVADA STATE ATHLETIC COMMISSION - JULY 23, 2001” These are the weight classes. “Lightweight - over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs. Welterweight - over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs. Middleweight - over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs. Light Heavyweight - over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs. Heavyweight - over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs.” The bout durations: “All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds. All championship bouts shall be five rounds. Rounds will be five minutes in duration. A one-minute rest period will occur between each round.” Here is a list of all 31 fouls. “1. Butting with the head. 2. Eye gouging of any kind. 3. Biting. 4. Hair pulling. 5. Fish hooking. 6. Groin attacks of any kind. 7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. 8. Small joint manipulation. 9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head. 10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow. 11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. 12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. 13. Grabbing the clavicle. 14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. 15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent. 16. Stomping a grounded opponent. 17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel. 18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. 19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area. 20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent. 21. Spitting at an opponent. 22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent. 23. Holding the ropes or the fence. 24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area. 25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break. 26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee. 27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat. 28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee. 29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury. 30. Interference by the corner. 31. Throwing in the towel during competition.” These are the ways to win. “1. Submission by: Physical tap out. Verbal tap out. 2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest. 3. Decision via the scorecards, including: Unanimous decision. Split decision. Majority decision. Draw, including: Unanimous draw. Majority draw. Split draw. 4. Technical decision. 5. Technical draw. 6. Disqualification. 7. Forfeit. 8. No contest.” And then there is this. “Referee may Restart the round: If the fighters reach a stalemate and do not work to improve position or finish.” Why post this? First, I’m a fan and I want to share this knowledge. Second, I am curious about something and I’m looking for some feedback. It is a foul to “throw in the towel” but one may win if the other fighter “forfeits”. Isn’t that a paradox or is it just me? Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

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K-1 fighting and WC fight club
Two interesting links. While I enjoy the UFC, I find my interests more towards the K-1 fight league as they have more martial art combatants. http://www.k-1usa.net/docs/home/home.asp I also found this site really interesting in the style I have been training. I'd like to see this started in my area. If anyone knows if there is any cross style sparring available in the Edmonton area please let me know. http://www.wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/index.php

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I would have to agree with you North, but I would like to see something in between the wc fight club and chi sao. Chi Sao you only go so far (no blood = no apologies) but you don't go out to hurt the opponent because we are not in padded gear and let's face it most of us have to get up and go to work the next morning. What I would like to have is a cross martial arts sparring session in protected gear where each combatant represents their own style. My past experiences in kung fu, karate, and now wing chun is that most schools have gone away from full contact geared sparring due jacka$$'$ taking cheap shots or trying jump spinning round houses and shattering their own bones and this becomes a headache and liability for the school. I guess there are tournaments one could enter, but I would like to see more of a regular group of guys getting together to sparr, and I suppose that's what caught my attention of the WC fight club.

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Thanks for the reply North, I guess I just want to test my skills without feeling the need to restrain my techniques. I'm not your typical wing chun frame being 6-3 230lbs and even when I problem solve with black belts I always feel I hold too much back in fear that I'm going to hit to hard. I guess learning the right amount will come with more training. Patience is still not a virtue I have developed.

To all, North, when I watched the “original” U.F.C. tape a couple of things jumped out at me. One was that there was no time limit which made for a dull watch but… This was definitely to the grappler’s advantage. The second was that no one guarded their groin (and I mean no one). The changes were made to make a better fight for untrained spectators. Truly knowledgeable fighters are there but so are the foolhardy. Small joint manipulation is a pretty sophisticated subsystem. By and large, these guys were just not that interested in sophistry. There was hair pulling and kicking a downed opponent (in the early bouts). But I am glad that I wasn’t the only guy to see this paradox. Jeremy Horn was defeated by Chuck Liddell, the second time they fought. It was due to a forefist strike to the eye. These guys often depend upon the basic strikes to carry the day. And there are some who depend upon conditioning alone. Their skill as either grapplers or strikers leaves much to be improved upon. Yet their willingness to fight is not in doubt. Hello Pak Sau, I like K-1 fighting myself as it promotes a striking system of combat. I took a brief trip through the wing chin fight sight. The thing I usually keep in mind is that dueling is all about being forewarned. Self defense is a surprise attack and lasts a fraction of the time a duel takes place. Therefore, it would be my opinion that only duelers are going to participate. Those who practice the art for reasons other than dueling are not wanted. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE