MMA vs traditional arts

mma
thanx for the greet. I think every game has advantage depending on the player. like how hughes, gracie, couture, lutter, and ortiz all have great ground games, but then theres liddel, sylvia, silva, st. pierre, bonnar, who are very dangerous on their feet. as for gracie, i respect the guy, but i think he has been raised to this god status where everyone thinks you have to have jiu jitsu to be a great fighter. but i find it kind of odd that gracies jiu-jitsu lost to a wrestling farm boy, who then lost to a stand up fighter, makes me wonder how gracie would have done against st. pierre or liddel, who has pummeld couture, ortiz, shamrock and a host of others wh try to take him down, which makes me think of your comment about the instructor who just moved when a tackle was tried, if you watch liddel he usually just moves out of the way or sprawls, and i dont think there is many people that would dare to get into a muay thai clinch with the guy because he punches so damn hard. ive personally sparred with a student of pankration, to begin with he showed me a few nasty things he could do to someone on the ground, but when we actually sparred i knocked him about, he had little blocking skill, the muay thai clinch is easy to get out of, and i actually took him down a few times and submitted him. i think just by training in any martial art u have a knowledge of how joints can be manipulated, as well as being able to adapt to different situatuions.

Hello Formersouth, You posted, “I think every game has advantage depending on the player. like how hughes, gracie, couture, lutter, and ortiz all have great ground games, but then theres liddel, sylvia, silva, st. pierre, bonnar, who are very dangerous on their feet.” Your comment is similar to a comment to what I once read by Paul Vunak. He said something to the effect that fighter “A” beats fighter “B”. Then fighter “B” beats fighter “C”. But to make matters interesting, fighter “C” beats Fighter “A” (instead of the other way around). You posted, “as for gracie, i respect the guy, but i think he has been raised to this god status where everyone thinks you have to have jiu jitsu to be a great fighter.” Yep! I’d have to agree with that. The Gracie’s style seems to be based on an “eat and grapple” strategy. I mean no disrespect by this, however it is my opinion. You commented about the student of Pankration, “he had little blocking skill,” It has been my experience that blocking (and defense in general) comes second to attack in M.M.A.. I mean, let’s face it; you don’t “win” on defense. The tendency seemingly is to ignore defense. And put all ones resources into the strategy of “attack first”. You posted, “i think just by training in any martial art u have a knowledge of how joints can be manipulated, as well as being able to adapt to different situatuions.” I’d agree, Chuck Liddell has wrestling experience (in college)yet rarely wrestles with his opponents. Randy Couture considers himself a “ground and pound” fighter (and not a submission expert). Regards, MrE2Me2

Hello North, You posted, “It will be interesting to see how the future plays out in the UFC. I personally think it's a matter of "Who comes along." I agree, so far the guys at the U.F.C. are skilled but they are going for five minutes a round. Right now, five minutes seems to be the limit for real skill among champs. (Kinda like Johnny Weissmuller’s Olympic Gold medal swimming records are now high school averages.) You posted, “Perhaps there is some scary Jackie Chan or Tony Ja skilled fighter who decides he wants ot be a champion.” There is already a leap in physical conditioning and martial abilities being demonstrated now. At some point, there is going to be someone who is just a lot more skilled than now. Look at Randy Couture, he retired from the Octagon and then he went on “Joes vs. Pros”. He was so much better that it became a matter of how many loses the “Joes” would suffer. You posted, “I'd love to see them do a cross weight class battle.” Yeah, that would be so cool! But I don’t see the state athletic commissions going along with this. Right now, the closest thing to this is when a guy changes weight divisions. You posted, “For now a couple of strikers are on top. I hope it doesn't go back to being a grappler dominated sport.” I would agree and while I respect grapplers, I prefer striking martial arts. Yet I’d point out that those strikers who are on top have some definite grappling skills. At the very least, these guys have to be able to defend against a grappling move. And speaking of striking dominant fights, I saw a women’s M.M.A. match a couple of nights ago. It was a first for me and I believe her name was Becky Levi and she won. I believe she is a wresting and football coach who had a sliver medal in weight lifting. More, her trainer was Greco-Roman wrestling coach and retired Octagon Champ, Dan Severn. At six foot and two hundred and fifteen pounds, she was a very dominant fighter. Yet she won with a couple of solid punches that her opponent was completely floored by. Regards, MrE2Me2

To all, Tonight, on “The Fight Channel”, they broadcast a live M.M.A. event. Something called “ExtremeXC” (I think). There were five bouts and two were of real interest to me (although I watched all five). The second one was between two women, Ms. Carona and Ms. Kedzie(?). These two women battled it out from start to finish! But Carona was the dominant fighter and took the victory decisively. Kedzie attempted to take Carona down several times. But each time Carona was able to defeat the takedowns. Either she’d reverse it and stand or just muscle out of it and regain her feet. The last match was between Frank Shamrock and Renzo Gracie. Frank thumped Renzo from beginning to end. Frank landed blows and backed Renzo around the ring for most of the fight. As well as punches and kicks, he threw over thirty knees in the process. Most of the knees were on the ground. In return, Renzo returned one elbow and one knee. Renzo was able to take Frank down a couple of times. But once down, he seemed unable to do anything else. At one point Frank landed a blow to the back of Renzo’s head. He received a warning for it. On the ground in the second round, Frank threw his knee strikes again. One landed on Renzo’s shoulder, neck and back of the head. Renzo then quit the fight and made a huge production of being unable to continue. Frank received a disqualification. That was the end of the fight. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

hey north
hi, i didnt mean to take away from hughes ability when i said he was a wrestling farm boy, he's actually one of my favorite ufc fighters, i was just trying to get across that gracie jui jitsu is not the be all end all of fighting. where were you a chief? if you dont mind me askin. i agree too that they should go back to having no set weight classes, it enables viewers to see that skill can supercede weight sometimes, and i find it more exciting to watch.

Hello Former South, I am sorry that I missed this thread for so long. Quite frankly, I just missed it. You asked, “…where were you a chief?” Actually, no I wasn’t. But one of my teachers was. :-D You posted, “i agree too that they should go back to having no set weight classes, it enables viewers to see that skill can supercede weight sometimes, and i find it more exciting to watch.” Yes. It is true that a truly skilled big man can defeat a truly skilled small man. But all too often, big and strong men (and women) rely on their strength and size. A smaller person must be really good (or get really hurt). Regards, MrE2Me2

To all, I was watching the T.V. show “Ultimate Fighter” on “Spike” earlier this week. There were two matches and the first was over within the first minute. The victor won with a rear naked choke. The defender seemed to have no defense for this basic attack. I see this submission attack a lot and would like some feedback here. Do these guys not get trained on how to defend against this? I mean, how tough can it be to lower your chin in order to protect you carotid artery? Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

I've been caught in this one a few times when sparring with my senior student who is also an ongoing practitioner of jujitsu. When someone puts you in a full strenth rear naked choke it can be extremely hard to bury the chin. Your windpipe is being crushed (a pain that lingers for days) and they are pulling the head up and back, which is the opposite direction from where you need your chin to go. You need to use ALOT of power to bury that chin and part of that is prying at their arm to create the space to bury it. The first few times I was caught in this (at full strength) I had some difficulty and it was time consuming to escape. I imagine if I were physically drained from a match and got caught by this mid-fight it would be even harder to get out of. in the UFC you can always escape by tapping out and the brain knows this and the subconcious will choose it as a means to escape if your other tactics fail. I teach my students to quickly pry at the arm but one hand tries to jab into the opponants eyes then is quickly moving up to the wrist and then the hand to break fingers and use those broken fingers as a lever for prying the arm off your throat. A vicious means to escape. Unfortunately in a real fight a rear naked choke can be done with the forearm directly into the windpipe so that the person defending isn't escaping, but is already maimed. It is sort of like practicing an escape for eagles claw. If they have already tugged your windpipe loose you can escape but the damage is done. Likewise with an armbar once they have you fully in an armbar there are ways out but odds are your arm is already going to be broken the instant they complete the technique. Some techniques require you to avoid ever ending up in them, or having been tricked by it so many times in the past that you can recognize what they are trying to do to you before it is too late. Rear naked choke is probibly the easiest way to beat someone who trains only Kung Fu (Or only a striking art.) I myself am very well practiced at engaging an opponant and getting them into a standing rear naked choke with their center of gravity back and down to keep them off balance. Part of the reason I like this technique is because you can pivot with the person in your arms and use them as a shield against other attackers, yet at your leisure you can release the choke and let loose a barrage of strikes to the temples, base of the skull and sides of the neck. If I knew I only had 1 opponant I would take it to the ground as it's that much harder to escape from that position. Bruce Lee once said that he taught his students to pry the arm, bury their chin far so that they can bite the persons tendons/muscles etc. I guess in a real fight anything goes, but if someone collapses your windpipe you are done. Oh yes, one last point. I do alot of exercises to build up the neck muscles. My senior student has put me in a choke before at full strength and I was able to prevent it by tensing up my neck muscles until they shield my windpipe and create a solid mass preventing the arteries from being pinched off. Obviously this takes years to develope though. The best method is to lay on your back on the ground but keep your head 1 cm off the ground. From there turn your head slowly from side to side but never let the skull touch the ground. Continue doing this for 15 minutes if you can. I do this while I have my legs spread using a wall to stretch into a splits poistion. It's killing 2 birds with 1 stone. One dissadvantage I can share is that I have a hell of a time finding dress shirts that don't choke me yet fit comfortably. ;)

On the subject of weight classes. I don't think they can have people fighting outside their weight class unless they remove all the rules and limmitations of the sport. It is designed to have people hurting each other but not killing each other. If a small eprson wants to beat a big person they need to be faster and hit to places that put a person down and end the fight. A good one to watch is UFC 4 ( I think, it's right around #4, 3 or 5 maybe?) Anyhow a Kung Fu stylist (White Tiger) of about 170 pounds is put against a 500 pound sumo wrestler. Emanuel Yarburo (sp?) The smaller man won the fight, however the techniques he used are all illegal under the new UFC rules. Knifehands to the base of the skull.

Hello North, Thanks for the feedback! You posted, “When someone puts you in a full strenth rear naked choke it can be extremely hard to bury the chin.” I too find it had to do once the choke has been applied! But my point is that in the octagon, these guys seem unaware of how dangerous this choke is. I am very aware of anyone putting their arms around my neck and go to lengths to stop this. Yet I do not see many preventative measures being applied in the octagon. And burying the chin as a preventative measure is something that must be practiced to be effective. One drill for beginners that I use for this purpose: I have the “attacker” step up silently behind the “defender”. The “attacker” wraps an arm around the “defender’s” throat. As this occurs, the “defender” must bury his chin. A variation of this drill is to have the “defender” drop back into a bow as he buries his chin. The point is to turn the burying the chin movement into a reflex anytime an arm comes near the neck. I had an instructor who was more into the elbow counter than the “bury” reflex. One day a “friend” asked if he could apply a choke to see the mechanics of the counter. As in where the elbow went, etc. But when he applied the choke, he went full power and speed. My instructor passed out instantly. But on the way down he thrust his elbow into the guy’s solar plexus. Both passed out. For me, the lesson was clear; I wasn’t as tough as my instructor so I had to be more cautious. You posted, “Unfortunately in a real fight a rear naked choke can be done with the forearm directly into the windpipe so that the person defending isn't escaping, but is already maimed.” Yes, this is how I was trained that a choke was used and it is how I first learned to defend against it. The concept of submission didn’t come up (for me) for a long time. You posted, “Rear naked choke is probibly the easiest way to beat someone who trains only Kung Fu (Or only a striking art.)” I’d have to agree with that. It is also why I hold it in such high regard as a deadly move! You posted, “My senior student has put me in a choke before at full strength and I was able to prevent it by tensing up my neck muscles until they shield my windpipe and create a solid mass preventing the arteries from being pinched off.” I do something similar but not as much and not to that degree anymore. You posted, “On the subject of weight classes. I don't think they can have people fighting outside their weight class unless they remove all the rules and limmitations of the sport. It is designed to have people hurting each other but not killing each other.” I agree, no one wants to see death or permanent maiming in the octagon. You posted, “A good one to watch is UFC 4 ( I think, it's right around #4, 3 or 5 maybe?) Anyhow a Kung Fu stylist (White Tiger) of about 170 pounds is put against a 500 pound sumo wrestler. Emanuel Yarburo (sp?)” I thought that was UFC 1. Wasn’t the guy a 200 lb. White Tiger Kenpo stylist against a black 600 lb. sumo wrestler. If memory serves, he broke some bones in his hand and had to withdraw afterwards. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

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