Knife Attacks
Knife Attacks I am starting this new thread primarily for knife attacks / defenses. My favorite author is Steve Perry. His sci fi novels are just great! But I digress, he says that a knife “takes away your first five years of training”. I would tend to agree. The late Michael Echanis (?) was a SEAL team teacher of H2H. He wrote, “A 160lb. soldier armed only with a knife but no training, Only the willingness and ability to cut and thrust deep, Is at a distinct and lethal advantage over a 250lb. H2H combat instructor. Even if that instructor was well trained and highly experienced.” My own training in Mo has led me to an equally serious attitude about knives. All it takes is a poke or a wave of the hand to kill or maim. On the other, knife wielders are beatable. I always regarded the first knife defense taught at orange belt as kinda mickey mouse. It taught the principles well enough but I don’t think of it as good in its own right. And then there is the time we were doing knife defenses in the KFC. I thought I had them all down cold, until we went “unrehearsed” Then, all of a sudden, I didn’t. Anyway, We have had some good feedback with the “Multiple Attackers” thread. Let’s see what your informed opinion about this is (and no sarcasm). Regards, MrE2Me2

To all, This is surveillance footage from a nightclub. Notice how quick it happens http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Q03qh7BTw This could go in the “Multiple attackers” thread too. Instead I have chosen to put it here because of the weaponry. I once talked with a policeman about how he was trained. Part of his training involved the use of the baton. How I see the baton held here is similar to what he described. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX2qjvEpnbU Then there is this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U7X68J9emc (Ideal if you know what is coming ahead of time.) Comments? Regards, MrE2Me2

Mr E2Me 2, I love the knife defence area of the arts. As I have spent the last few years training in filipino arts ( which are largely blade oriented). yeah I seen that video actually already. i have spent hours looking for real surveillance footage as a research tool for my blade training. First of all I beleive if possible run. first and foremost run. Any thing i ever talk about inregards to knive fighting is only an option when run is not. I always carry a knife with me. The law states "equal force". he pulls a knife , I pull a knife. Now we are equal. I do not believe in trying to attack your opponents body when defending in a knife VS knife scenario. Sure you are more likely to kill your opponent which would probably cross the "equal force " line, but in getting that close you leave yourself open for the same thing, dying. If possible , as he attacks , cut the flexor tendons in his wrist, making knive manipulation almost impossible. Or cut his bicep or tricep making it immposiible to use his arm in an intelligent fasion. Or cut his quadraceps, affecting his mobility. eliminate his functionality. However if attacked, and I do not have a knife, there are a few guidlines i would like to offer. a) be totally committed to any defence you attempt b) block incoming attacks with the back of your hand if possible. It reduces the risk of your flexor tendons, or major veins being cut. c) if you can redirect the blade to wards him without touching it, your finger prints will never be on the weapon. Darn it, I gotta go. More later.. PS thanks for starting this thread. sifu shawn

MrE2me2 Just in the process of figuring out "you tube" so I can start sharing some kempo with ya. I am just trying an experiment. I have a lot of footage of my Filipino art teacher Master Norman Suanico. I uploaded a video of him performing a sword and dagger technique. ( I guess the dagger part falls under knife defense, thats why I thought I would try it on this thread) I wanted to see how hard (or easy)it is to upload vid onto utube, and you can see one of my teachers in action. Kill 2 birds with one stone. The link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5gH-wiQhgQ also these 2 links below are of Master Tatang Ilustrisimo, He is Master Normans teacher. My Master actually lived with tatang for 10 years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6IC80sLN7g&mode=related&search= and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVLuGedKe0c&mode=related&search= Hope this works sifu shawn

MrE2Me2, Gave it a try looks like it works. In the near future i will upload some Moo Kempo. Any ways those kali vids are just a test for me , but I think it is kind of cool for you to see where my knife and stick experience comes from. Tatang was actually one of the most ferocious filipino artists of the last century. He fought in and survived several real knife fights. He actually did chop a mans arm off. Unfortunatly he is now dead. Master Norman is actually the most senior Ilustrisimo teacher in North America. I am very priviledged to learn from him, considering how much up close and personal training he received from Tatang. If i am able to go to the filipines next year to compete in the Bakbakan World Championships , I want to visit Tatangs gravesite, and pay my respects. Get my picture taken there, that kind of thing. Hope you find those vids interesting. sifu shawn

Hello Sifu Shawn, Oh Wow! Those are really great vids! Thanks for sharing! Regards, MrE2Me2

Actually I have noticed like 95% of the martial arts teachers I meet with carry a knife in their day to day lives. I think we eventually realize the reality of a knife attack and how lethal it is. I tell my students this: "When someone pulls a knife you should assume they are a trained opponant and know a magical strike called the Punch of Death. Would you truly wish to fight someone with the Punch of Death? That is what a knife is. it means that if they land a single strike you are very likely going to end up dead." I say it that way to put it into context for them. There was a Thai Boxer a few years back who owned a franchise of schools in the USA. One night he was walking through the park when he crossed paths with a knife wielding assailant. Being with his friends he thought he could disarm the attacker and play the hero. He only got stabbed once but it happened to hit his heart. That is the story of him. I am sure his schools closed down shortly after. And sometimes it isn't a knife you face. I had a friend come out of a bar in Calgary one night and a large group of Lebonese guys surrounded him and from under their coats pulled out machettes and Katana's. Simply put the only thing he could do was beg for his life. He is rather lucky he didn't get killed. Grasshopper once told me a stroy of walking down a street in Toronto when a man walking towards him and his mrs started getting violent and hitting newspaper boxes, swearing etc. He wisely decided to cross the road rather than get into a conflict with his mrs around. When he passed the man and looked back he saw a large kitchen knife in the mans hand behind his back. Good thing he crossed the road. (I hope I got that story right Grasshopper?) Anyhow knives are out there so I repeat from the other thread, NEVER go looking for trouble. I met with another person who I believe posts here but am not certain of the name he uses. We were discussing knife defences one evening and he asked me a simple question that really opened my eyes. "You have trained alot of things that would likely work well against a person holding a knife. What would you do if you were attacked by a person with a knife in each hand?" That thought still makes me shudder.

To all, Tonight I was working with Jason on basic knife defenses. Here is the arm break defense. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MG-JTVBmHo Here is the body lever defense. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1Hf0Pqs70M Here is a surprise (watch blue’s hands). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Cq4NNi55N4 Regards, MrE2Me2

That's all very good advice. A knife is not something to be taken lightly. And part of the problem is in today's world you never know who may be packing one, or something worse. You should never go looking for trouble, in fact you should do all you can to avoid it. Any training in knife defence or any techniques for that matter should be trained with the understanding that you would be using it when all other options are exhausted. Those guys that believe they are trained enough to deal with any trouble those are the guys that get killed finding out they aren't. Hate to bring it up again but it's the same thing as the multiple attacker scenario. You never want to find your self in that situation but if you do would be a good idea to have a few skills for dealing with it. Pray to God you never have to use anything you train. "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum" "Let him who desires peace, prepare for war."

Hello Current Student. You posted, “A knife is not something to be taken lightly.” And you posted, “…it's the same thing as the multiple attacker scenario.” Absolutely true! You posted, “Vegetius: Rei Militari 3, Prolog. wrote: "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum" "Let him who desires peace, prepare for war." I remember Master MacAndrews quoting this in the old Edmonton Studio. Regards, MrE2Me2

Current student, Any training in knife defence or any techniques for that matter should be trained with the understanding that you would be using it when all other options are exhausted. Yes I agree with you. Totally. I train a blade art and I would not want to have to fight someone with a knife. Especially if I am unarmed. I would be a lot more more comfortable if I had time to get my blade out as well. However, I say that is only if all options of escape have been exhausted. The thing is that escape may not be an option. Lets say you are with your young kids when you are attacked, they cant run as fast. Or here is another scenario. And this happened two weeks ago to a young person who is the son of a friend of mine. He is about 19 or 20. He came home to his apartment, and his girlfriend was being raped at knife point. He managed to chase the guy off ( I am glad to say the cops did catch the dirt bag) but she was raped and cut, and he was not able to do anything but chase the guy away. What if the guy decided not to run though. What would you do? Leave her alone and go to a neighbors to call the cops and wait there, till they arrive?? Would you fight??? Would you try to reason??? And you know what , we have the privledge of being able to answer these questions from a third person, "trained", perspective. I cant imagine what a person with no training must think in that situation..... I dont know what it is like to view conflict from an untrained point of view. How scary that must be for people that are not as fortunate as we are to have chosen the path of a martial artist.. My point I, I guess, is that it is easy to say run if you are by yourself. But what if a loved ones life is at stake. If me and my younger boy were attacked at knife point, I know what I would be willing to do to save my sons life, or my wifes life. sifu shawn

Well the same guys say run for multiple attackers scenario. I mean it's a great option if it's there, but the reason we train and train hard is for when the option to run is not there. Otherwise we'd just train track and field.

Another story: Recently one of my students friends was attacked by a person with a knife. he was standing at the urinal in a nightclub simply taking a leak. Suddenly for no reason the guy beside him punched him in the face and bolted out of the washroom. Furious, he chased the guy trying to catch him and get his revenge. The bouncers grabbed him with shocked looks on their face and started to grab his neck. It turned out the fellow who punched him had punched him while holding a blade and had slashed his throat! The victim had no idea he was even cut, he just gave chase until the bouncers saw a man with a shirt soaked in blook and a neck wound. he lived, the cut somehow wasn't lethal. The point of all this I guess is just that a person never knows where trouble will strike. Part of not looking for trouble is knowing the places where trouble lurks and avoiding them. I don't know which nightclub this was, but it was one in Edmonton. I myself stopped going out to such places long long ago. I cannot say I had more fun in nightclubs than I do elsewhere but I can say I have seen alot more trouble take place in clubs and bars than I have anywhere else. Another point: Even if you carry a knife, the guy who sucker punches you/ stabs you has the upper hand. You cannot run when it is already too late. so avoiding trouble is paramount.

Hello North, You posted, “Even if you carry a knife, the guy who sucker punches you/ stabs you has the upper hand. You cannot run when it is already too late. “ Yeah, I hear that all right! In B.C. there have been several incidents where someone was attacked. Two that come to mind are guys wielding machetes. In both cases, the untrained victim saw the attack coming and thru up their hands. And in both cases, the victim had hands chopped off. There was a guy in the Vancouver studio that chased after a shoplifter with a co worker. When they caught up to him, Mr. Q sensed something and held back at the last second. His co worker didn’t and was seriously cut about the throat. We are definitely agreed here: Having an awareness of the danger a knife poses goes a long way. Having an awareness of the danger the knife wielder has goes even further. Regards, MrE2Me2

To all, Here is an article on knife fighting by Richard Ryan. http://www.kungfuonline.com/article.php?article=102 In it he makes several interesting points. He dispels “The Myth of Knife Fighting”. “Rarely do two hostile combatants face each other toe-to-toe for a battle of the blades.” Instead he says,” In truth the edged weapon is more often used to overwhelm victims often with the use of stealth or surprise.” He goes on to explain why he thinks knife fighting is taught. “Well for one, it can be profitable.” Of potential students, he goes on to say, “They don’t want to learn the hard truths.” Things like,” They don’t want to learn that if you have to quickdraw the blade in your defense, you’re probably already dead or should have done something else like hit them or run.” And, “They don’t want to know the reality that knife on knife combat is the riskiest and most problematic form of combat that there is carrying, with it almost no margin for error.” He continues the article, “So why practice knife on knife combat? That’s easy, we do so because the practical lessons you learn from such encounters are priceless.” He even posts some common sense rules. “1. Don't expect to use conventional blocks and parries against a knife attack. 2. You'll never catch a knife hand in motion, trap it or control it without first severely hurting the attacker first. 3. In defense of a knife you will be cut - the trick is not to die - so be psychologically prepared for it. 4. Try to evade contact entirely or if you must defend cover or shield your vitals and counter viciously. 5. If forced to fight, stay compact and move in with the most lethal attack you can and try to end the fight immediately. 6. Better yet - get a weapons yourself and even the odds!” So far I have summed up about half the article… The rest is very interesting. About the only thing he doesn’t cover much of is what happens when the police become involved. Check it out… Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE