Is there a point to all this?
What's the point of this forum? I told my wife (also x-PHS) yesterday about this new forum and she brushed it off... "I can't believe you guys are still talking about that crap, move on, get a life". Hence the question...

Your wife is probably right! If x-students do respond, well then this forum has a point. That's why I would like to know about life after tkf, did they quit, find a new style to train or did they just give up on all martial arts! If this forum is just going to be a bitch fest about tkf, then this site will probably fail. Cam

Definitely!
As long as Olaf and co. are still in business, the truth needs to get out. Plus I think those of us who had a bad experience deserve and maybe need a good place to vent about it periodically. Good on ya Grasshopper!

Personally I also believe the truth about the place should get out there. I hope this forum and the other one (in all it's juvenile glory), provide illumination for people considering lessons there. Or students who have questions etc... How well does this forum show up on a search engine? It might get a little boring and slow if we are all anti-tkf. It would be real nice if the brainwashed subhuman w/ the black belt in cut n paste on the other forum finds a shred of integrity and answers some of the question posed. J.K.

Hello to all I'm pleased to see this forum. It is making an attempt to be courteous and civil. Nearly every other kempo/kenpo forum I have ever seen is filled with polite people. They have their share of disputes too but they don't dwell on them to the same degree. I think it is high time we (the students of Moh) cleared this bickering up and got on with martial arts. The man-formerly-known-as BitterBob

Is there a point to all this?
This poses a good question. Is there a point to all this? I think there is. What I would like to see is people talking about and sharing about the art of Moo Kempo. I feel bad for those of you who only trained for a while at TKF and got a bad taste in your mouth. Any one who has been around the Martial Arts world for any length of time knows that a lot of organizations have problems and many organizations fall apart due to bad management and politics. But that does not make the arts which that organization teaches bad. Even if you have been involved in the arts for 5 or 6 years, it honestly is not long enough to get a bigger picture of the politics in the martial arts world. The Martial Arts has a very high drop out rate at the best of times. It is a lot of work, it takes dedication and commitment and takes away from other areas of your life if you truly commit yourself to the arts. the best of schools and the best of teachers will tell you only afew of the students that come through their doors ever make it to black belt. And then after a few years the black belts even quit, if not within a year of getting there black belt. And everybody has excuses. There is nothing wrong with the art of Moo kempo I know that for a fact. If you were discouraged at TKF and quit because you did not like the Business model that is fine. If you have not resumed training than most likely ( and i dont mean for this to sound mean) the martial arts are not for you, and you would have found an excuse to quit, no matter what club you were training at. I have been involved in the arts since 1984 ( and i still consider myself just a student) Moo kempo is just one of the arts I train. I train Tai LIu chuan fa kung fu, jiu- jitsu, Illustrismo kali, and shotokan as my main arts. I also cross train in kickboxing, ninjutsu and various other arts. I dedicate a lot of my time to the arts. I volunteer time for elementary, middle, and high school demos, womens groups self defence also. I have seen nothing in other arts that make moo kempo look bad. It is a good art. What I would like to see is people come here and share about the art. My name is shawn, i train at the chinese boxing connection. I have no desire to run anyone down or to run down anyones art. All arts have pros and cons. But i do wish to talk with real students of moo kempo who wish to discuss the art itself. shawn

Hi Shawn, Nice post, thanks for joining the forum. grasshopper (Christian)

I still train the Moh system as well as other styles. I think that it is important to have Moh recognized for what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't like the overbearing slander against TKF nor do i like the devoted faithful "It's unbeatable" comments. I discuss the other styles I train on other forums for those styles and in the process you learn more and more. This forum represents a place to openly discuss the Moh system with those who also train(ed) it and continue to learn more about it. In the process of doing so perhaps Moh can find it's place in the world. It exists and shall continue to exist so the mystery that was fogging the style needs to be unveiled and discussed so people interested in it know where they stand. It would be nice for someone someday to actively seek this style out and desire to train it with no illusions or lies. it has many things worth knowing.

Nice posts MrE2Me2, Shawn and North. I agree completely. For the record I will never call Mo Kempo "unbeatable" but I like you have heard other people say it. Thank goodness those people have gone their own way, they said some other things to me that I know were not true also. Any person and any system can be beat...except for Chuck Norris.

chuck norris facts
# When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris. # Chuck Norris doesn't read books. He stares them down until he gets the information he wants. # There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live. # Outer space exists because it's afraid to be on the same planet with Chuck Norris. # Chuck Norris is currently suing NBC, claiming Law and Order are trademarked names for his left and right legs. # Chuck Norris is the reason why Waldo is hiding. # Chuck Norris counted to infinity - twice. # There is no chin behind Chuck Norris’ beard. There is only another fist. # When Chuck Norris does a pushup, he isn’t lifting himself up, he’s pushing the Earth down. # Chuck Norris is so fast, he can run around the world and punch himself in the back of the head. # Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship. # Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked someone so hard that his foot broke the speed of light, went back in time, and killed Amelia Earhart while she was flying over the Pacific Ocean. # When Chuck Norris sends in his taxes, he sends blank forms and includes only a picture of himself, crouched and ready to attack. Chuck Norris has not had to pay taxes, ever. # Chuck Norris once ate three 72 oz. steaks in one hour. He spent the first 45 minutes having sex with his waitress. # Chuck Norris does not teabag the ladies. He potato-sacks them. # Chuck Norris's tears cure cancer, too bad he has never cried. There are much more if you go too www.chucknorrisfacts.com

Swollen Knuckle, What a riot! Uh oh!...The Chuckster is watching!!!

Hi, I was a former student from Toronto. I trained for approx 2 years. I left due to injuries at work. I'll be honest when I sy after perusing your forums that I was in the dark about a lot. I enjoyed my time there on some levels. The workouts were great as were the one on one lessons. The perpetual bombardment for money I chalked up to as inexperience. I use to say to friends that they were instructors not salesmen hence the poor ways that they tried to influence money from me. I never took it to heart. These days everything revolves around the dollar why would a martial arts studio be any different. Personally my biggest issue was the "turn and burn" attitude of instructors. When in a position of learning the concept of trust between teacher and student is paramount. Especially for somone like myself who was new to the arts and felt a little unsure. As a former rugby player I had a litany of injuries which required special attention when training. Hence the value of the same teacher/student relationship. After about a month or so my original teacher was gone, without explanation. I didn't need to know the reasons per se, but acknowledgement of him being gone and the introduction to a new one would have been nice. I would have settled on a passing down of information from my old teacher to the new. I had to explain all of my injuries and how I was being trained to my new teacher. To condense, I went through approx four to five teachers in the first year. This became quite irritating as I was tired of having to explain my situation. An example being that due to serious shoulder injuries I could not perform push ups, I had worked around this by doing extra situps etc...yet every new instructor would inform me that I could train and eventually do them. If they had been informed of my injuries they would know not to push the matter. It essentially made me feel that I was just another cash cow. The belt testing was something peculiar to me as well as I felt that I should not have passed my Green belt (perhaps I am to hard on myself) yet I was passed and immediately asked to join the sparring club which of course was a new cost and one that they needed immediately. My response was that I didn't feel ready to add anything else on to my plate. It wasn't the money but rather the pace. Between lessons, the Kung Fu Club and the open classes I felt my plate was full, you know what I mean? I felt I hadn't put it ALL together yet and wanted to wait a bit before I joined. Also, in hindsight I think I was beginning to question the whole thing. From a cardio point of view I was satisfied, yet from a combat point of view I was unsettled. As a novice to the arts I couldn't understand the passive training. I am not suggesting that we all should be hitting eachother in the face at all times, but some physicality should have been in order. If I missed a block and was clipped in the face or body is that not a learning lesson? I felt no fear when sparring, let me put it that way. I'm digressing, It was at this point that I began to wonder if this was really the place for me. I felt a little upset that I was at some times (more than others) being taught by other students who were not that far ahead of me. I brought this up with the head instructor who didn't really know how to placate me. Martial Arts is not something you master over a short period of time so it made no sense that a blue belt was training me. Am I wrong? I am certified in my trade and I can assure you that no one other than those qualified would ever be teaching someone. Should the same rules apply for martial arts? All in all my experience was mixed, perhaps I was a little naive. I had brought in 4 of my friends and all but one eventually left because they felt pressured(when it came to money) and felt that the training was inadequate(they to were trained by younger students as well). I guess my real problem was wanting to believe in the lifestyle. I wanted to be a part of something that was time honored and special. I went to several other studios where I got the impression that I could "buy" my blackbelt. TKF seemed ideal, I really got into the whole letter writing and interviews by your peers and such. We live in a fast food world where words like honor and discipline have a rare meaning. The idea of TKF appealed to me because of that. The physical side was wonderful but it was the idea of belonging to something outside of the real world that really hooked me. Learning martial arts today is not like the old times, now all you need is a credit card. This is what upsets me more than anything, I drank the "juice". I had my own misconceptions and by know means did these forums cement my feelings towards TKF, rather it was liberating to hear some of the very things I thought. I new I wasn't the only one but had never heard anything said before. This is coming to light as I am essentially healed up and ready to begin again. I am out of shape, need to quit smoking etc...And when I was training I felt at my best. I noticed they had opened a location a few blocks from my house. So I went in and surprised that my original teacher was running this location. I was almost ready to sign back up. But I had a nagging feeling that I should wait. Maybe it was the badgering of money I dont know. So a few months passed by and one night I googled TKF and found a litany of critical blogs and posts. This site being one of them. I dont know the whole backstory of all the things being said but some things I read I agree with. I will not go back, that is a certainty, it upsets me because I am unsure where to go from here. There are alot of studios in the city and many of them are not for me. I cannot go back, aside from the reasons mentioned because of the philisophical differences as well. Mr.Simon had always seemed off. I would see pictures in the magazines and read his articles and was always perplexed at the things he would say because I could see a rolex on his arm. I also read his little manifesto and had major difficulties with what was said. I am not gay, but I have no illwill to anyone who is. There were other things said as well that went against who I am and what I stand for. I tried talking to the instructors about these things and I can say that at times I believed they thought the same but just couldn't say so. So where does that leave me? Sad. Sad because I wanted to belive in the concept of Kung Fu and the lifestyle I thought I would find there. I could have lived with the shoddy way of their sales tactics but it is more than that now and with that my illusion has been broken. I don't know if Mr. Simon is still involved or not but whats done is done. I take this all fairly seriously if only for the fact that TKF was aplace to escape the "real world". I hope you get what I mean by that. For the few hours a day I was there it was like I was somewhere where I belonged. To whomever is involved in the creating of this forum I say Thanks. Thank you for illuminating me on things I think I knew but didn't. And thanks for allowing me this post. Friends and such dont get it and its nice to be able to say my piece. I have no hatred to TKF just upset that they are no different than any other corporate entity and seem to care only for the 'bottom line". From what I've read it seems that TKF has gone through some changes, for the best? I guess I'll have to keep reading.

"I have no hatred to TKF just upset that they are no different than any other corporate entity and seem to care only for the 'bottom line" Welcome to the club. I see the annoying bug eye avatar is back. I'll try to fix that soon.

Is there a thread in here that can give me a little background to the "contraversey" if their is one on OE Simon. I was a member from 2002-2004. Did something happen afterwards? Like I said in my earlier post I reinjured myself and was away from the studio. I was going to join again earlier this year. I see that their website is either down or changed. I am not looking to bad mouth the place rather it was my home for two years. This thread asked if this forum was worth it. I think the answer is yes. As I said in my earlier post. I was unaware of anything that was going on. Is it my business to know. Not sure. But when you spend as much time training as you do working it becomes a way of life. I would just like to know if that life was mislead. Was I learning something real? I am not experienced enough to really say if there Temple system was real or not. I'd like to think that what I dedicated myself to learn was in fact a true form and not something mired in the dogma of a man who may not be what he claims to be. I've read that things have changed, is it worth going back? if not, where to go...If anyone reading this is from Toronto, any advice as to possible destinations to train would be welcome. You can't believe everything you read these days so the advice from another would be greatly appreciated. The year and a half that I was away I always spoke of the great honour that it was to train. Never once did I utter a bad word and to think that all this time it may be for nought is quite upsetting. I learned that Martial Arts is something that should be taken seriously it becomes a way of life, it gets completely integrated in all that you do. For almost two years I have been away and not a day goes by that I didnt think about it. And now that I am ready to resume what I started its a little disheartening to learn that what you once called home may in fact never have existed.

Hello, charron. You trained in what I consider to be one of the worst periods for TKF. The pushy sales tactics, the constant turnover of instructors, and the other bad business practices you mentioned are all valid complaints of how things were run. This poor way of doing business could not have lasted, and it didn't. Earlier this year, the Ontario TKF studios went bankrupt (a similar thing happened last year in the West). A year ago Edmonton and Calgary have reopened two brand new locations, owned and ran by very long-time TKF members who set out to fix the problems of the past. The new studios are operated, for the first time, by people with extensive business experience, as well as tremendous skill and understanding of the martial arts. The pushy sales tactics and all that are gone gone gone. I currently train in Edmonton, and the difference between how things used to be done and how they are done now is unbelievable. The training is top-notch, and you are always taught by someone who's qualified (on the rare occasions when you're taught by a student, it's always a senior PHS). The business is done very professionally, with an open-door policy. The atmosphere is more informal and personal, but the discipline and respect are still there. I couldn't ask for a better studio. Unfortunately, Toronto has not reopened a full-time professional studio yet. They do have an amateur club, led by senior members, that meets a few hours a week to train.