Injuries and Training
To all, I threw my back out a couple of weeks ago. It is an old injury and I have to be careful how I move. I’m not whining about it. It is what it is and it could be so much worse. Every once in a while, I’ll move incorrectly and that’s it. I’m down and hurt and I stay that way for weeks if I’m lucky. Sometimes I’ve taken months to come back to health. Well, I’ve been to the chiro (two actually) and I feel much better. I have my chiro appointed goals to work on and it’s getting better. A long time ago I had an instructor who broke his ankle and it didn’t set properly. I also know of another instructor who broke their shoulder. It was a career ending injury. Working with an injury is always a difficult proposition. In my experience it has to be approached slowly and carefully. Yet at the same time knowledgeable care should be provided in a determined manner. I have found there is no room for half hearted measures. I have started this thread because in the martial arts, injuries have a way of occurring. I am interested in hearing from others who have had an injury (major or minor). I am interested in hearing how they dealt with it and how it has affected their practice. Regards, MrE2Me2

To all, Surely I am not the only one on this board to come back from an injury. I know that they have occurred and I’m looking for feedback here. By the way, North and Sifu Shawn, your advice on reconditioning my shins is working well. It has only been a couple of months but I can definitely feel an improvement. I was actually, quite lucky in when I inured my back this time. I had nearly finished getting it adjusted (one more treatment to go). Then B.C. gets 2 feet of snow in 24 hours and another half foot a couple of days later. Regards, MrE2Me2

To all, I debated for several weeks before I decided to post this. In the end I have decided to go with it. I have extensive back trauma. I didn’t know exactly how bad. I’d had x-rays and I see a chiro once a month. But being a soft tissue injury, it was hard to say how bad it was. I could only go with how bad it felt on a daily basis. Anyway, a couple of months ago I started a new treatment. Something called, “Active Release Treatment”. http://www.activerelease.com/providerSearch.asp It has provided me with relief from nagging and chronic back pain. I thought I’d never be rid of this yet I can see a definite improvement. It has also helped me become more aware of other problems stemming from this. For example; I had a sore back so a lot of my stretching got left out. As a result my hamstring muscles are not as flexible as they should be. And performing crunches had to be modified considerably. This has since started turning around. This treatment helps in the short term as well as the long term. If anyone else has experience with this treatment, I’d definitely like to hear about it. Regards, MrE2Me2

injuries? hehe where to start! When I worked for TKF I messed up my back to some extent. Scarborough was the pushup capitol of the TKF studios and we certainly did alot! My weak side just didn't keep up with the strong side under that level of strain and I ended up with about 7-8 knots near my spine and shoulderblade. I tried physio and that had poor effect. I then tried accupuncture and within 3 visits the knots were gone. Because I still teach the knots have popped back from time to time but now I find if I use the techniques I learned in physio I can get them back into shape. I did about 20 visits to a chiropracter as well, however I found that after switching to an asian chiropractor his advise was just to do physio to over-stimulate the muscles. That has worked for me. About a year and a half ago I blew out my knee. I was doing a flying spinning back kick against the bag and decided to put as much power into it as I could. Well, every action has an equal and opposite reaction it seems ;) I was pushed back with so much force that when I landed my knee buckled sideways and crushed the cartilage(sp?) as well as overstretcing some of the muscles in the area. I was using crutches for about a month if I recall. To date this is the most serious injury I have ever suffered. The doctors explained I needed surgery and would have to have the tendon cut and shortened etc, however I don't put much faith in doctors. I decided to just baby it and then rehab it first. The worst I could forsee would be re-injury and THEN grudgingly getting the surgery. I have given it some minor tweaks here and there but it is still healing. It makes a crunchy noise when I do a squat but that I can live with it and I am able to do all aspects of my ofrms and techniques again. I still don't trust the knee 100% but in a few years at this rate I expect full or close to full recovery. I am not young anymore and recently my shoulder has been giving me trouble. There is no reason I can think of why this is occuring but when I train I get the odd sharp pain as though a muscle is rubbing on bone or such. (I would guess I likely taught for a day without proper warm-ups or some such) That is how it feels anyhow. It also does this when I sleep with that arm under my pillow. I pulled my rotator cuff on the opposite shoulder in rugby a year ago but it healed nicely, it's the other one that mysteriously won't heal and seems to be aggrivated. My plan is to use weights to build up all the muscles in that area and provide better structural support to the entire shoulder. Anyhow, I guess my advice to anyone with an injury would be to avoid the temptation to try and stretch it or recover too quickly. Sometimes you need to let it mend before you strengthen it. on a final note, I recently watched an interview with Jet Li talking about how he is done with Kung Fu in movies. He explained he had many injuries but that he couldn't put his finger on them exactly. Not broken bones or pulled muscles but just "Something isn't right inside." I think when we condition our bodies to be under as much control from our minds as possible we hit a state of sensitivity and awareness. Thus the tiny injury is very noticable while someone who is lethargic and non-athletic can have far worse without noticing. This of course is just a theory I have but it rings with truth to me. ;) Gl, and I am happy the shin conditioning is working well for you.

North I am not young anymore and recently my shoulder has been giving me trouble. There is no reason I can think of why this is occuring but when I train I have been told that when a person is doing push ups the elbows should almost be rubbing the body as you go up and down, other wise it can cause shoulder problems over time. I do my push ups with my elbows away from the body ( which if this sensei was right in what he told me, I am doing them wrong) which is the same way I do my bench press. Wide grip, elbows away from the body. And I to have shoulder problems. Dont know if our cause is the same, but our symptoms are the same :lol: sifu shawn

Hello North, Well, you certainly have a lot of injuries. I haven’t tried physio but I have been going to the same chiro for 20 some years. Both he and now his son continually update their information and skills. As for the chiro that practices A.R.T.: I came into contact with her from a different source. I intend to continue going to both as both benefit me. Since I have gone to A.R.T., I can now apply heat once again to my back. I alternate heat and cold with time between them to return to room temp. It works and I’m making progress. About your push ups: I would say that I was originally taught as Sifu Shawn was taught. Elbows close and fist vertical, which would make this a shoulder movement. However, I have had some real success with the bench press grip, as well. The bench press grip works my chest more than my shoulders. But because of the nature of my back trauma I ended up doing them on the stairs, It is an easy push up and I don’t feel the challenge nearly as much. Yet my back doesn’t ache and I simple do more to compensate for the easiness. When I was younger I hurt my rotator cuffs. But I got off lucky and they healed without trouble. Now I am aware when I start to move my shoulders incorrectly. I also have had another interesting challenge come upon me. I’m not as flexible in my upper back, as I once was. So I stretch my upper back out before push ups. Or I do them with a wider grip and not to full extention. This seems to help my back and my shoulders. (Just a thought.) Regards, MrE2Me2

I do my push-ups with the elbows in actually. (Though recently not nearly as many push-ups as I used to do, perhaps that is part of the problem?) I actually think it's from some of the circling sideways arm motions but who can say? it's nothing serious at the moment unlike the knee injury. I am not looking forward to getting even older though! lol I imagine my training will shift more to the Bagua and Tai Chi side of the arts as time passes. it seesm this is common with many instructors of Bak Sil lam.

Sorry, I have no idea who is teaching bagua out there. Bagua appears simple but the complexity and understanding of it come with time and practice. If you find you cannot find an instructor I would consider learning the form from video even to familiarize yourself with the movements. It does move quite differently from other styles. If you find it is something you wish to continue studying from that point you can then travel to the USA and meet with some more famed masters and study the variations in the different schools of bagua. Unfortunately Canada just doesn't seem to be the sort of place where Kung Fu thrives for some reason. I have seen some very skilled Tai Chi masters open schools only to close them less than a year later. It always makes me sad to realize that our society seems more interested in going to the bar and getting drunk, when they should be developing their own health a bit more.

Hello North, You posted, “Unfortunately Canada just doesn't seem to be the sort of place where Kung Fu thrives for some reason.” One of the things that I’ve noticed with many types of small businesses is the failure rate. Something like 9 out of 10 fails in the first year. Of those that survive, only a tiny fraction of them continue on to survive their first 10 years. I think there are a variety of causes for this. But in the end, it comes down to this one single fact. The things necessary to running a successful business are a skill unto themselves. The service or product being offered is a separate thing from the biz. (I don’t think this is emphasized enough.) My wife is a professional and we have talked at length about biz. We’ve talked about how many different ways it was done in the various places I’ve been. We’ve talked about the different ways it has been conducted. We’ve discussed many aspects of biz that I didn’t know about. We’ve also talked about those aspects of the biz that I didn’t pay much attention too. Most martial artists I know are not driven businessmen with an eye on the profit. They are talented artists who don’t know much about biz. I mean no disrespect when I post this. But if martial artists are to survive professionally, then they have to be better at biz. I also believe that when this occurs, the stress levels of owners will also be reduced. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Very true, but surely you have also noticed a decline in alot of the martial arts? I remember being able to buy 10 different types of MA magazines at almost any place that sold magazines. Now to get a copy of a martial arts magazine you have to go to Chapters or another big book store. I think when we were young martial arts were a huge interest to alo of kids. Now it seems computers and video games have stolen that market. I have been running my Kung Fu school for going on 7 years soon. It cannot pay my bills by itself. (Well maybe bills but not mortage as well) In that time I have put some money into advertising, I sent out 10,000 flyers, attended community awareness nights and set up a booth etc etc. Each time I do something like this I get a few more students, but ultimately the nature of Martial Arts seems to be that the very very few will stick with their training consistantly. Eevn with the mass numbers TKF brought through the doors how many made it to brown belt? A very small %. When you are asking people to pay $$ to do hard work and get injured it is alot harder to sell than most other products. If a person opened a MA school with the sole intent of making money I would call them a fool. A coin laundromat makes far more profit for far less work. People get rich owning car detailing shops. Those of us who own schools do so because we love the art and want to continue our own training under our own guidance. In China however having Kung Fu training is a great thing to put on a resume for jobs in the military, security and police. Kung Fu schools in China thrive for that reason (Also they get the odd tourist dollar when people like myself want to upgrade their training or seek out more respected lineage.) I hate to see a trend of MA decline, but I do see it. I hope it's just me and somehow I am wrong but I have seen alot of evidence to support it. TKF going from 16 schools to 2 schools is only 1 piece (and they were business oriented!). There are a multitude of other schools closing down in many different arts. :(

Hello North, The following is what I have observed over the last thirty years. Martial arts studios tend to come in sets like waves. First there is one or two studios. Next a few more will start up, as well. And then there will so many that they seem to appear on every street corner. Finally, the tide will turn and gradually they will all disappear. You posted, “Those of us who own schools do so because we love the art and want to continue our own training under our own guidance.” True that! You also posted, “I hate to see a trend of MA decline, but I do see it. I hope it's just me” It is my opinion that this is the beginning of the tide change. Watch and within the next five years, the tide will have reversed itself. If the past is any indicator, within five years, martial arts will be extremely popular again. Regards, MrE2Me2

Shoulder Injuries: Just another thought on the old shoulder but I have a messed up right shoulder, I can't remember what the Doctors called it, but basically my muscles and tendons in the shoudler are very tender and have a difficult time fusing to where they should be. Therefore, if I do a wicked punch or some other movement where I jerk or move my shoulder extremely, they rip off again. It can be very painful sometimes. It's a common condition among athletes like quarterbacks and pitchers, anyone who uses their shoulders drastically and often. It's not tendonitis, becasue I was treated for this first, and after many doctors later, I found out that it did more harm than good. I have to keep moving and strengthening it so I can have full use. It sucks. This lovely injury hit me when I was 15, and I'm stuck with it, unless some strange miracle happens. This may be what others have, as unless you've been tested for it, you don't usually know you have it. I'm not denying the improper push up thing, but just another thought. Knee Conditions: I was unlucky enough to be born with a knee condition where the cartilage is rough and doesn't want to let my knee work easily. They could shave it smooth, but besides the damn needles they would poke me with, I'd be laid up for 6+ weeks, with no guarantee that it will work. So I deal with it and keep on going. If I stop using my knee, then I lose my functioning knee. This also can sometimes hurt. So those days where I have a difficult time with deep knee bends and other exerciese where the knee is heavily used, that's why! I think, no matter what sport, people will always be plagued with injuries. Either way, I will have to be dead or completely limb-less to stop training. But in my own opinion, I think with proper exercise, eating right, and possibly medication if you have too, a person can work through and be healthy for a long time. Oh! And would you look at that! I'm a troll now, how lovely...

Hello JDkick, I have two students and both have injuries in the areas you describe. One with serious shoulder injuries and the other has serious knee problems. You posted, “I can't remember what the Doctors called it, but basically my muscles and tendons in the shoudler are very tender and have a difficult time fusing to where they should be.” My back has a similar condition and it is very annoying. My chiro has prescribed alternate heat and cold packs. It must be healing somewhat because now, I’m able to put heat on it. A few months ago, I could only put cold. You also posted, “Either way, I will have to be dead or completely limb-less to stop training. But in my own opinion, I think with proper exercise, eating right, and possibly medication if you have too, a person can work through and be healthy for a long time.” Yeah, I hear that all right! I have had to modify my training regimen on several occasions but I wouldn’t give it up. There are just too my positive rewards to do that. Then, out of the blue, you posted, “Oh! And would you look at that! I'm a troll now, how lovely...” With respect, I would disagree. I think that you have been as antiseptic as possible here, especially considering the topic. Regards, MrE2Me2

To all, It has now been three weeks since I hurt my back. Thanks to the knowledge and hard work of my chiro’s, I’m well on my way to healing. When I was younger, I would sometimes ignore injuries and puss through. I was impatient and didn’t want to wait until it was healed before I started training again. This gave rise to chronic injuries which I could well have done without. Well, better to learn this lesson late than not at all. Regards, MrE2Me2