I gots to know!

I gots to know!
I gots to know! 1. Why does this sound so familiar? http://www.eijkhout.net/rad/dance_offnet/studios.html 2. What about this? “Relay Salesmanship. Some studio instructors use the technique of relay salesmanship _ consecutive sales talks by more than one representative in a single day _ to try to persuade students to buy lessons or buy more lessons. This tactic may put you under heavy pressure to sign a contract, encouraging you to buy lessons you may later realize you do not want or cannot afford. Overlapping Contracts. Some studio instructors try to convince their students during lesson time to sign additional contracts before completing the current lessons. In some instances, you may unwittingly be buying additional lessons that extend beyond your interest, your physical fitness, or even your life expectancy. High-pressure Sales. Some studio instructors, using high-pressure sales tactics, exploit student emotions or personal vulnerabilities to oversell lessons. Sometimes, when students refuse to buy additional prepaid lessons, instructors will neglect them in classes, embarrass them in public, or transfer them to a less skilled instructor.” 3. Has anybody heard of this? "the Louise Taylor junioring method" Junior?????? 4. Where would these ideas have come from? E&OE Without prejudice

These tactics that you have brought to light are sales tactics. Its nothing out of the ordinary. yet very anoying I would agree. These are tactics used by life insurance sales people, car sales people and any one else that is dealing with the business end of making money. There are high pressure life insurance salesmen( who are annoying ) using all kinds of pain in the butt contracts to lock you you in. Thats there job. usually the insurance is good however. There are also high pressure pain in the butt car salesman, that make you sign a contract ( commonly called a bank loan). But the car is still good. People are upset about Simons business practices, we get it. But hes not alone in that implemention of them. He is not even running a business anymore . So it backfired on him anyway. Let that be your payback, and move on. The art and the business are seperate. Bad business good art. Lots of top notch artists are cut from Simons cloth. If you dont know any, you really need to get out once in a while. sifu shawn

Hello Sifu Shawn, Thank you for your response (and no sarcasm). The short answer first. Though I might achieve short term satisfaction, I have found that revenge is ultimately self defeating. So, I am not attempting payback here. I did spend a long time being angry at what happened. But now is the time for me to let go. And this is my way of letting go. This is my way of, “moving on”. These posts are about clarifying what did and did not happen. They are about what is and is not true. Those things that I do not have evidence of, I ask about. The longer answer Now to be fair, Vortexx and Current Student have stated that business is now done better. I am glad to hear it. But this also means I’m talking about the past when I talk business. As I have said elsewhere on this forum, I am still attempting to separate the the art of Moh from the past business of TKF/SKS. I post in this forum in two places. One is “The Great Debate” about how I think Moh stacks up. The other is in here in “Temple Fraud”. The art verses the business. You posted,” These tactics that you have brought to light are sales tactics. Its nothing out of the ordinary. yet very anoying I would agree.” With respect, I would disagree. Here is a link to a 2005 Florida statute. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0501/SEC143.htm (Among other things, it says (in part) that it is now illegal to use “relay” salesmanship”.) Today it is Florida, who can say where they will be illegal tomorrow? You posted, “He is not even running a business anymore . So it backfired on him anyway.” With respect, I would disagree with that too. Rumor has it that he retired to a scenic location on the temple lands at Grand Forks, B.C. It is my opinion that it would likely take a forensic audit (and more) to clarify what happened. So we are probably never going to know for sure. You posted, “The art and the business are seperate. Bad business good art.” I agree, in theory. But in reality, there are 22 registered users at this forum alone. That doesn’t count the lurkers. The previous temple forums were just plain ugly. They were filled with rage and it just wasn’t going away. You posted, “Lots of top notch artists are cut from Simons cloth.” Yep! Actually, I do know some and they are top notch. But this brings me to my next point. There is a lot of negative traffic on the net where Olaf is concerned. Very few people seem to rise to his defense, even these top notch people from the past. This isn’t the case with Ed Parker or the rest of the Kempo/Kenpo community. Why? Finally, You posted,” …you really need to get out once in a while.” L.O.L.! Aint that the truth! (Ya, I know I took that last part out of context.) Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Mr E2Me2 , I am glad you did not take anything I said as malicious. I see so many people still bashing gM Simon all the way around, i think a lot of my statement was aimed at the negative massess moreso than to you personally. Moo kempo is like the foundation of my own art. It has its good qualities but also its limitations. And I only wish to defend the art and its past teachers best I can. I have a lot of forms and techniques from Moo kempo. But they are from the art as it was taught 30 years ago to my teacher. Kempo was a good base for me to start from and expand from there. And I agree with you Ed Parker has a lot of people defending him or that speak highly of him. As for why some of the good artists that were cut from Simons Cloth do not come to his defence?????????????????? I know for sure a few of them dont spend there time on these sites. there are a lot of people on these sites who have very little Martial arts experience and they have no idea what they are talking about. Thats why there is so much garbage being posted out there. I have been reading these forums for a few years now, and rarely find anything worth replying to. There are lots of people I would like to reply to but it would turn into something similar to a junior high school argument. And i would be arguing with people who have no martial arts experience to speak of, and very little if any moo kempo experience. Its been nice talking to you. Sifu Shawn PS I need to get out once in a while myself (L.O.L)

Hello again, Sifu Shawn, You posted, “I am glad you did not take anything I said as malicious.” Na, I could see that you were not angry. You posted like you did not understand the point I was trying to make. You posted, “…they are from the art as it was taught 30 years ago to my teacher”. Uh…Who was your teacher (if you don’t mind my asking)? I ask because that is near the time I started in Moh. You posted, “Kempo was a good base for me to start from and expand from there.” I agree. I happen to be very excited about Kempo. You posted about good Martial artists not posting in Simon’s defense. On the one hand. I know of at least one who is online but never posts anything at all. He doesn’t believe in it. I also know of a couple of others that are not online and couldn’t care less anyway. On the other. Olaf Simon was a spectacular fighter, trainer and demonstrator of Martial skill. Why did he drive nearly everyone away? I mean, make a short list of his black belts. There was Lyndon Bateson, Margie Hilbig, Trevor Higgs, Phillip McAndrews, Brian Leishman, Wayne Thomas, Scott MacLaren, Gerry Kwan, Roman Terleckie, Richard Shergold, Walter Piercy, Troy Sparrow…the list could extend into the thousands. But so far, outside of Vortexx, Current Student and you, hardly anyone posts in his defense. It is my opinion that what we are seeing the effects of a bad business model run amok. And who did this model come from? How did it find its way into SKS/TKF? How did it become the focus of the school, instead of the support? (But I digress.) It is my opinion that posting about the art of Moh will bring it out in the open where it can proudly stand along side other Martial Arts (instead of seeming to skulk in relative obscurity). It is also my opinion that posting about the biz is the best way to get it out. Once it is out in the open, then we can see the biz for what it was, nothing more or less. Having seen it for what it is, we can “move on”, as you put it. (I have used the “we” here to refer to those students of Moh who still have a hard time dealing with what happened back in the day. Students like me.) You posted about newbies and juveniles with nothing better to do. Yes, there are always those around. I have also had to learn not to type back to these. I have found that it merely encourages them. You posted that it has been nice talking and so it has. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Mr e2me2 its to bad i am not able to spend more time here right now to talk to you but I will say what i can in a short period of time. my teachers name is Ed Bruneau. He was taught by Master Higgs in calgary. But he also helped teach under Master Macandrews as well in Edmonton. That was back in 1973- 1976 approx. I will not lie, he left because of the business practice. As a matter of fact he wished to teach at Simons full time but the money was not enough and when the money issue was brought up he was terminated as an instructor and no longer aloud to train there. He was young at the time and obviously quite upset beacause he really looked up to both Master Simon and Master Higgs and liked training there. But you know what, after all these years he still talks about the good qualities of Master Simon and his teachings and rarely "complains" about the falling out. Because Simons Kung Fu studios gave him a foundation for training and planted a seed, for the love of the arts. And he has pursued the arts and taught them with a passion for over 30 years now. I was fortunate to have begun my training with him as a teenager back in the early 1980s and have been with him ever since. At that time he was still big into kempo and that is an art I still like to train to this day. He went on to train all over though. He has spent five years in the orient, trained in brazil, vietnam you name it. And he has no problems with me training else where as well to expand my knowledge. I cross train in Sotokan, and filipino kali, and also devote 2 nights a week to train with and teach at his club. Its all good. I have had the opportunity to train with Master Higgs myself, only for a couple of days, but it was cool. There are actually a few kempo guys that are more a direct result of Master Higgs then Master Simon, and they are all phenomenal. Master Gil Laffannassie being another one of them. Extremely taleneted in many aspects of the arts, not just kempo. He may have even trained with Master Simon as Sifu Ed did. Private classess with GM Simon I mean. Any ways I am starting to babble. so I will talk to ya later. sifu shawn

Hello Sifu Shawn, You posted that your teacher was Ed Bruneau and that he trained until 1976. Unfortunately I wouldn’t have met him, as my training did not start at SKS until 1977. You post that you and your teachers received many positives from training at SKS. I’m very glad to hear that. From my side. It took a long time before I was able to look at my history with SKS in a positive light. One of my teachers once suggested that I view my time in Edmonton as, “a bad dream”. As it turned out, I had to do this for Vancouver too. At that time it was right to do yet I have grown up. I see my training in Moh as a good thing now. As I posted to Grasshopper, I believe there are a lot of people who view this forum who are like I was. Those who do not remember the art but only the bad business model run amok. My purpose here. I am trying very hard to remember the zeal with which I used to train. It is guys like you who post of their positive experiences which help this along. There are those who say I should let it go but I won’t (I’m a stubborn cuss.) Anyway, I’m finished for a bit. Regards, MrE2Me2

"These tactics that you have brought to light are sales tactics. Its nothing out of the ordinary. yet very anoying I would agree." I also agree they were annoying, but they somehow didn't bother me as much as most people. I knew how to say "NO", and I can't say I was ever forced into anything I didn't want to be forced into. I think most instructors figured that out after a while, and didn't bother me as much. On one occasion, the instructor so desperately wanted to sell me sparring membership that I managed to negotiate a 2 years for the price of 1 deal, which worked great for me! Like most people in Edmonton I lost money when Weber went bankrupt, but that's always the risk of doing long-term business with any company, and overall the long-term contracts worked well for me because of the 20% savings. In any case, I'm glad all of that is in the past, and there are now no more pressure sales whatsoever. In fact, I haven't been bothered even once since I signed up in the new studio a year ago. All the prices are now available up-front, and don't depend on your negotiating skills. "There is a lot of negative traffic on the net where Olaf is concerned. Very few people seem to rise to his defense, even these top notch people from the past." On this forum, there are only a few people posting on either side, which is nothing compared to the huge number of students and instructors that TKF produced over the years. On the old forums there was so much negativity, slander, misinformation, personal insults, etc. that most people who were willing to engage in a reasonable conversation were chased away from there. I personally never posted on any other TKF forum because I felt it a complete waste of my time talking to people who weren't at all interested in listening. I knew that anything I could post would be overwhelmed by a ton of garbage, and I think that many others stayed away for the same reason. As for the top notch people you mention, I think most of them either don't know of the existence of these sites, or are too busy running their own businesses to care. "Why did drive nearly everyone away?" As Current Student mentioned elsewhere, many of these people were with TKF for decades, which is far longer than most people ever stay at a single job. It would be unreasonable to expect them to stay with TKF for their entire lives. Those who were students learned what they came there to learn, and moved on. Those who were employees either quit or were dismissed for various reasons, but that happens in every business. Some of the owners decided that they no longer wanted to operate within the TKF franchise so they opened their own studios (it's understandable that they didn't maintain contact with GMS since many of them continued to teach his style without a license, and for the record Simon never sued anybody for it). A couple of the owners went out of business. One (that I know of) had his franchise license revoked (and for good reasons, if you ask me). Some simply moved on to other occupations. I think each had their own personal and different reasons for leaving, and it would be wrong to say that it's all Simon's fault for driving them away. Those who allege that GMS purposefully drove his masters and owners out of business overlook the fact that it would make no sense for him to undermine his own schools and reputation, and lose all the franchise fees the schools were paying. Very few relationships, whether personal, business, or professional, last an entire lifetime, and most marriages don't last as long as some of these people have stayed with the system. And even now after all those people have left there are still plenty that have been with TKF for two decades or more.

Hello Vortexx, About past biz: I, too, am glad that the past business practices are in the past. I posted,” "There is a lot of negative traffic on the net where Olaf is concerned. Very few people seem to rise to his defense, even these top notch people from the past." You responded about the low numbers of people on this forum and the futility of posting on the old forums. But that is my point, Vortexx. When I surf over to other Kenpo forums, they are almost painfully polite. The tuff typing I have seen, even here at this forum, would be a banning offense there. In my opinion, Nowhere have I seen such vindictive fury, as at an old temple forum. I’ve certainly seen foul language and incisive questioning at other martial arts forums but never that level of hostility displayed towards a grandmaster of martial arts, as at an old temple forum. I also posted, " Why did drive nearly everyone away?" You also responded about the old students of Olaf being too busy. I happen to know that is the case in at least one instance. Yet… On other Kenpo sites, The old students of Masters are still posting respectfully. Even when these Masters are dead, or old and frail. They make time to do so. In all fairness, you make a good argument for people going their own way. I am just shocked at the sound and the fury I see around me from the students of Moh. (Sometimes even from me.) Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

First let me say I really enjoy reading your posts Mr E, you have a refreshing point of view. But that is my point, Vortexx. When I surf over to other Kenpo forums, they are almost painfully polite. The tuff typing I have seen, even here at this forum, would be a banning offense there. In my opinion, Nowhere have I seen such vindictive fury, as at an old temple forum. I’ve certainly seen foul language and incisive questioning at other martial arts forums but never that level of hostility displayed towards a grandmaster of martial arts, as at an old temple forum. But your comparing a completely unmoderated forum (old forum) to a loosely moderated forum (this one) to a forum moderated by owners/operators. I bet the forums that are so polite of which you speak has it's share of deleted posts that not many people see. Like on the old forums people positive to TKF were chased away, on those other forums people who are negative are chased away and thier posts deleted. Am I wrong here, I don't think so? This is pretty much the norm that the moderator sets the tone and direction of the forum.

Hello Current Student, Thank you. I too, enjoy talking about these issues with people who are informed. About the old forums. I had to leave the old forum when my computer crashed. By the time I had it up and running again, I found other things to do. There was so much ugliness there. About the new forums. You posted, “I bet the forums that are so polite of which you speak has it's share of deleted posts that not many people see.” I tend to agree, the other kenpo forums tend not to post about unpleasant topics. Such topics would include who succeeded Ed Parker after his untimely demise. There was / is a great deal of political infighting over this. But nay a nasty word on the forums On the other hand, it is my belief that we have to get these issues (about Moh) out in the open. There is such malevolence over certain issues concerning Moh (primarily on the old forums). I don’t think deleting and spamming or intimidation and emotion will make these go away. You posted, “But your comparing a completely unmoderated forum (old forum) to a loosely moderated forum (this one) to a forum moderated by owners/operators.” Yep! It is all I have to compare. It is my hope that this forum will be a place where issues concerning; The art of Moh, The old biz of Moh, And the tales of Moh , Can be resolved. Regards, MrE2Me2

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