Credentials

RE Vortexx
Vortexx, Ya,ya....we get the point. TKF has changed. We're all wrong. You guy's are on another planet as far as skill goes...blah, blah, blah. Vortexx, I trained at TKF for years, I know the drill, the system, foundation, etc. I don't doubt things are better and we're all happy for you and the others that remained at TKF. I know who Crossman is, he was a blue belt in Mississauga when I was there before he moved out west. I stayed long after that. I don't train Moh at all anymore. Why? Because I've realized there's a better way of doing things and training. My choice, just as staying is yours. It's interesting to watch a TKF blackbelt come and try the style I train now (or any student from TKF for that matter). They are LOST. Why? Because they spent so many years training Moh/ PHS and they have programmed a ton of bad habits in their practice. It's simple mind-boggling to compare the difference of a traditional CMA style taught by a master to that of Moh. Having a conversation about it with people that haven't been training these styles is next to impossible because they simply don't understand what you're talking about. Cam and I have tried in earlier posts to discuss balance and power, the most fundamental things, with the pro-TKF here but you can tell by the responses that we may has well be speaking another language entirely. What's my point to all of this? I guess it's the fact that many of us here understand exactly what you're talking about but I'm pretty confident you don't understand us. TKF simple couldn't change enough for the style to be entirely different now. I had lessons with Simon, many of them. In retrospect he just isn't that good, IMHO. Piercy is on another planet compared to Crossman. Crossman simply couldn't have closed that gap. As long as the style is limited to what Simon knows, which I now know that he has no thorough understanding of what Shaolin kung fu actually is, then you'll forever be limited to his kowledge. I do agree with on one point though; if you have limited time you may has well focus on a style you're happy with. As to the multiple attackers....I would thoroughly enjoy seeing the current TKF master, 3rd degree, whatever, deal with 1, let alone 2, of the people I train with now. Try to be a little more open minded. Moh/PHS isn't what it is made out to be.

Hello DaveS, I'm glad that you have found a style that you believe in. I have found that training in a style you believe in is vital. I cross trained with Sifu Fred Whiting of Pak Sing Choy Lay Fut and Wu Shu. After several months, we eventually agreed to disagree. In essence, he did things one way and I did them another. If you want to consider that being lost, then that is your problem and not mine. I will always value my time with Freddy because it showed me how valuable Mo was. And I consider Mo pretty valuable, thanks. As for cam and yourself talking to us, I enjoyed our talks. Some of what you said was applicable and some of it wasn't. To all, I usually prefer to practice one on one training (just my thing). But there was a time when I did multiple attackers. I'd have to agee with North on this one. A student just isn't going to come as hard at me as a stranger. One of my teachers chose mulitple attackers as his speciality. He prefered to circle them and they would get in each others way often. Then there was the time one of the old Vancouver green belts was atttacked. He was leaving the PNE and making his way through the crowded parking lot. He was attacked between 2 cars by 4 men. It was over in a few seconds and he was not only successful, he was unharmed. He had time to hit each guy only once and that was all he needed. Years later Mr. P was ambushed on his bus by 3 young men. He dropped the first and the rest ran. Mostly, I train one on one because that is what I prefer. Just as I prefer to train Mo, others prefer traditional CMA, I don't. This doesn't make me better or them worse, it just makes us different. As different as Freddy was to me. Regards, MrE2Me2

Vortexx, your tactic to discredit me here is a little off mark. yes I have about 4 years total time w/ tkf moh kempo whatever. I did do six months of that time training directly w/ master Shergold. Did you get to do that? Every class for six months w/ a master? I did mention when I went to do Kenpo it was w/ a former TKF chief ,right? A former PHS member TKF chief. Do you not think we analyzed what we were taught ? I know your tactic here is to belittle the people with the obvious sane point of view , while you carry on like you have had a frontal lobotomy. As for my training since then, I have been exposed to more than anyone curently training @ TKF. I have trained with more knowledgable individuals than anyone @ TKF will ever see. I kinda quit posting because the tkf stance is to turn a blind eye and desperatly try to valid the lies. I really don't care. I'm gone from there and that is good. I really really want to encourage others to do the same. Your posts help alot. I stick by my post. TKF training is as Stagnant as ever. Never evolved. SUBPAR. J.K.

Vortexx, I am glad you disagree with the mathamatical accuracy of my theory. it was never proven by science .it is a way i explain to my students that it is absolutely the dumbest thing you could ever do is to fight 3, 4 or 5 attackers.Any good instructor who is genuinely concerned about the safety of his students would never encourage or promoote this kind of thought process I am sorry. If you or your teachers want to advocate fighting that many people, and wish to make it look like it is a very feasible and practical thing to do. Go ahead. That is the most dangerous leson I have ever heard any martial art instructor be willing to teach. Its like sending lambs to the slaughter. I will stick to my bad math equation, and avoid fighting 5 people thank you very much. I am otherwise speechless. I cant actually believe you would disect the math on what is basically a suicide mission. I am not saying it is completely impossible , but anyone capable of beating five trained blackbelts would be a rarity. And they would have enough self confidence not to tell people they are capable of it. If you wish to beleive that a staged fight is the same as a real fight that is up to you. If you have been in a real fight you would realize how dangerous this 5 man attack story is................... sifu shawn

Vortexx, If you've ever played chess you'd know that someone who's say twice as good as his opponent can beat him 99.9% of the time (not 2 out of 3 games, as you might expect). If someone plays 10 people who are each half as good as he is, he's still going to beat them all without much difficulty. I do not mean to be argumentative but the five man scenario you are defending is a grave idea. I have a hard time beleiving you would argue the mathematics of my theory ( which admittedly is used as a deterrent for my students as not to make them think they are superman,it is certainly not a scientific fact, as you took it to be) and in turn use a chess analogy to defend your position on a suicide mission. I have decided that you, if you are an instructor, are giving your students a completely false sense of realistic and safe combat. If you would expect me to believe that you seen a scenario where 5 trained Black Belts were actually trying to hurt this individual , and he beat them ( in your 20 second theory we are talking 1 person on an average of 4 seconds) I do not beleive you. In order to drop 1 person every 4 seconds until there was 5 people laying at your feet, the situation would have to be real, the strikes would have to be fatal, and that is that. You would barely have time to intelligenty strike them never mind, move around in a strategic way to avoid getting hurt as you are suggesting. Especially , moving to outsmart trained black belts. If you are really going to defend your position on this, and be an advocate of it, I hope you have a lot of real life experience to back it up. Because teaching this attitude to students based on" I saw a guy do it on stage once " is atrocious. I have combat sport and practical on the street experience. I work part time as a security supervisor in charge of crowd control at Rock festivals, venue concerts , multicultural events, and such. I have worked directly with law enforcement and tactical teams. And I am drawing the conclusion by the way you talk that you really do not have a lot of practical experience. Which I generally do not care about. There are a lot of good martial artists that have had no real life experience. But when it comes to promoting fighting 5 people at once. I think those kind of discussions should be left up to those who know what they are talking about. An instructor passing this kind of mentality on to students is very bad news. That is what will get people killed. If it was done on a stage, it is not real, it was controlled. Because if the five trained blackbelts were not swinging to hurt, it was not real. If the "Master" and all five black belt "attackers" were still standing after this 20 second flurry , it was not real. If none of the "attackers" got hurt while said "Master" was defending himself in this 20 second all out " battle" then it was not real. I am sorry you have been mislead in this area of your training. Especially if you are an instructor. For the safety of your next student ( which could in all honestly be my nephew, neice or cousin or friend because we live in a small world) please rethink this multiple opponent thing through. now I am not saying dont train for a multiple opponent attack, they are becoming all to common. Train for it, and pray it never happens. I am alarmed, as an instructor, that you are oblivious to the severity and likely fatal ramifications of this 5 man idea you obviously see as both glamorous and worth defending................. If you are an instructor, think about it. If you are not an instructor, think about it. sifu shawn

Thanks for the compliment Vortexx. I wasn't suggesting tackling 2 new styles at once, but I am certain you could pick up Wing Chun and continue to devote time to Moh. The Wing Chun system is not huge and most of it you will find you already know. Bong Sao = modified Bell Block but used very differently. In so seing the use of the Bong Sao you better understand the Bell block etc. Even Tai Chi would be of use. When you look into applications of Tai Chi the same as you look for applications of Temple Motions you find alot of very nasty things hidden in the form. ;)

RE
Hi Mr E2Me2, Your post: "Hello DaveS, I'm glad that you have found a style that you believe in. I have found that training in a style you believe in is vital. I cross trained with Sifu Fred Whiting of Pak Sing Choy Lay Fut and Wu Shu. After several months, we eventually agreed to disagree. In essence, he did things one way and I did them another. If you want to consider that being lost, then that is your problem and not mine. I will always value my time with Freddy because it showed me how valuable Mo was. And I consider Mo pretty valuable, thanks. As for cam and yourself talking to us, I enjoyed our talks. Some of what you said was applicable and some of it wasn't." Wow. 3 months eh? You must have gained a massive amount of knowledge in that time regarding Choi Li Fut. Perhaps your explanation has been misunderstood but it sounds like you wouldn't listen to him because you were set in your ways and decided to bail out. That doesn't surprise me. I can appreciate your position. Your art is Moh. Of course you think it's valuable. I would honestly like to train with you some time and share principles that can only be passed on in person and never explained. I see you try to be open minded. You and I have exchanged emails long before this site started up, although you may not remember. Anyway, don't take a post to someone else so personally.

DaveS, You posted,” You and I have exchanged emails long before this site started up, although you may not remember.” So it was you I was corresponding by email with! L.O.L.! My computer crashed back then. I lost all my contacts except for the old temple fraud name. The guy who put it back together suggested that I take more care where I went on the net. And seeing as I was down for awhile, it sounded like good advice. I must admit that I was quite nervous when I first came to this site. Anyway, it is Good to make your acquaintance again! You posted,” Wow. 3 months eh?” No, actually it was closer to a year but I saw him infrequently. It was really Wayne and Laurie who saw the most of him. You posted,” You must have gained a massive amount of knowledge in that time regarding Choi Li Fut.” Not really, we exchanged forms and some principles. I got a chance to spar with him and see his system as it compared to Mo. I always regarded Freddy as being quite brave about teaching in a foreign studio. He did it well and gave me a positive view of CMA. Something I had not always held in high regard up to that point. You posted,” Perhaps your explanation has been misunderstood but it sounds like you wouldn't listen to him because you were set in your ways and decided to bail out. That doesn't surprise me.” Actually, I was really quite impressed with what Freddy showed me. He was very up about his systems and he always seemed “on”. On the other hand, we were two up-and-coming alphas and there was some tension there. He gave me a glimpse of what he could do and I hope I “we” were able to reciprocate. It was just an interesting experience. You posted,” Anyway, don't take a post to someone else so personally.” L.O.L.! Never! But I do become impassioned about what I see at this forum. I find that the scenario of 5 on 1 something to be impassioned about. Therefore, I made a limited comment on it. It is unlikely that I would take what I see at this forum personally. Unless someone deliberately said,” Take this personally!” (Or they deliberately and maliciously broke the rules.) Regards, MrE2Me2

RE
Cool. Nice to hear back from you. And not forgotten :) Cheers

DaveS, Thank you. To all, Just to throw some proverbial gasoline on the fire here. This post has several multiple attacker training vids. These are listed, in my opinion, best at top to less than best lower down. This guy looks good! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1sK5zBRbec He seems to know what he is doing (at least he’s in control). On the other hand, the attackers aren’t much of a threat either. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhvAkM8FYWs 2 on 1 with a takedown and a breakaway (amateurish but fun) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Txz6JVYp_0 Would that all my attackers be this slow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD6p0KzMZcg A multiple attacker training vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufSJ6FMYvUQ Another http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7z5hpgbbR8 Regards, MrE2Me2

You have to remember Dave S that some of us did train in other systems BEFORE going to TKF. So your arguement about only you know what it's like outside TKF does not hold water. If you train in something that suits you better all the best to you. But changing systems is difficult, you can't paint it with the simplistic brush that your old sysem sucked because you have a tough time adjusting. And please lets not get into making chalenges for other people. I hate seeing oh the guys in my school could kick your ass. You should be doing your own ass kicking or else keep your boasting restrained. As for the 5 attacker scenario you guys with all this MA knowledge should know there are ways to make the odds more even. There are some disadvanages the 5 man team has you just have to be good at expliting them. If 5 attackers were trained as how to attack as a team they would be much more dangerous but in most cases you can expect they attack as individuals with little to no teamwork.

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