I find it very sad that Ed Parker had to put all that work into his system and then pass it down to no one. All he did was to ensure the fragmentation of his system and perhaps it's eventual demise! And for what, greed, paranoia a self-inflated ego? I have a lot of respect for what Ed Parker did, except for that statement!

Hello Yen Hui and Cam, With all due respect to everyone. Now see, this is how misunderstandings occur. I believe that my posts have not been clear. What I said about GMEP is this: "Ed found that the traditional Kenpo system needed more modifications. Ultimately, his changes made up 85% of the system which he now call American Kenpo”. http://www.psykenpology.org/lineage.htm This is how he says he changed. ” Parker also credited Chow for getting him to consider the notion of master key movements. He says, "Chow and I swapped a lot of infor- mation," he said. "He noticed a lot of thing; didn't work in an American en- vironment. He was the guy who started me thinking about master key move- ments and increasing my knowledge." http://www.usadojo.com/articles/magician-motion.htm And more on his particular changes.Concerning “Master Key Movements”: “MASTER KEY TECHNIQUES entail sequential arrangements of movements that can be applied to a number of predicaments. In the case of a MASTER KEY TECHNIQUE it is a single technique that may be used as a BASE MOVE. Other similar techniques may then be perceived as formulations of it.” http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-10904.html These are taken from a post here, in the thread about Richard Shergold. http://templekungforum.14.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=28 To the best of my knowledge, GMEP used terms like “Mechanic of Motion” to describe terms like ‘Disciple” and terms like “Magician of Motion” to describe terms like “Master”. When I can find a link to his ranking system, I’ll post it. Yen Hui, you posted, “…Ed Parker never produced any true masters, as he openly claimed (in an article that MrE2Me2 previously posted a link for) that he never taught or transmitted his entire system to any of his disciples; out of fear that one of them might someday betray him,…” With all due respect, Yen Hui, I don’t believe I have ever said that. Nor do I believe it now. What I said was that both Ed Parker and Olaf Simon grew. And as they grew they changed their martial art. But that Ed could admit to his changes and Olaf could not. More importantly, Ed’s former students still speak of him with high praise. I have NEVER found a detractor. Cam, you posted, “I find it very sad that Ed Parker had to put all that work into his system and then pass it down to no one. All he did was to ensure the fragmentation of his system and perhaps it's eventual demise! And for what, greed, paranoia a self-inflated ego? I have a lot of respect for what Ed Parker did, except for that statement!” GMEP passed away suddenly and unexpectedly. It is one of American Kenpo’s real struggles. How do they keep the system from fragmenting? Perhaps they need to form a council? I don’t know and I know that I don't know Nor do I wish to stir up that particular controversy. It is only because it impacts directly on Mo Kempo and Pai hu Shi that I have brought this up, at all. But your conclusions are not accurate. As I said at the beginning of this post. I believe you have misunderstood me here. My apologies to all for any confusion Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Hello Yen Hui, With all due respect: You posted that, “Parker admitted more than the fear of jealous rivals has motivated his reticence regarding his American kenpo. He said he has worried over former students who would leave and open up kenpo studios of their own.” I looked through that interview and I stand corrected. You are right; he does state that near the bottom of the page. On top of that: I did some more checking, after I read your rebuttal, Yen Hui. Despite claims that Larry Tatum was his protégé, GMEP and Mr. Tatum split. “Larry produced his videos shortly after he left Ed Parker to go on his own and open his own studio. Which means all the American Kenpo material that was taught to Larry by Ed Parker was frozen in time! None of the changes made by other instructors after Ed Parker's death would be there! This is about as "pure" as you are going to get.” http://www.tracyskarate.com/AmKenpo/Tatum.htm So it would appear that GMEP had something to be worried about. Or perhaps he brought about that which he feared? Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Hello Yen Hui, Again, with all due respect. On a separate but related idea: You also posted, “The author of the above linked article claims that a "true" master of any given system (or style) must possess a complete knowledge of that entire "system". Now, if this principle is strictly adhered to, then someone like Ed Parker never produced any true masters,” But in spite of these statements, I just cannot accept that either GMEP or GMOS did not produce masters. Perhaps the “how to” article is aimed at people without any real skill. Yet both GMEP and GMOS accomplished much during their martial arts careers. I look at the number of high ranking Black Belts that have trained for decades each. Sifu Shawn has stated earlier, that Master Trevor Higgs is a certified Master of Kung fu. There is a statement of similar claim made here for Master Larry Tatum. http://www.tracyskarate.com/AmKenpo/Tatum.htm So I would say that the article would be inaccurate in the cases of GMOS and GMEP. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Hello all Sifu Shawn has stated earlier, that Master Trevor Higgs is a certified Master of Kung fu. Just to confirm. That is correct. The alberta kung fu association. As a matter of fact I beleive it is also known as the Ging Wu Assoc. It is the same association that Master Margie Hilbig has her Masters through. My Instructor Sifu Ed Bruneau has a 7th degree through them. ( 10th is masters by their regulations).. sifu shawn

Sifu Shawn, Thank you for the confirmation, concerning Master Higgs And for the info about Master Hilbig, as well. I couldn’t remember where I had seen it. Regards, MrE2Me2

in the end credentials are in the skill of the teacher. I have very very rarely had a student ask about my lineage or credentials. People see someone with skills they wish to aquire and then they start training. I think the only way credentials would be a real issue is if the teacher never demonstrates or has poor skill. I would wager the question of lineage with TKF and GM simon would never have been so large if they had consistantly skilled teachers and never ever yellow belts made Jr. Instructors. No matter what a person's lineage is if they have great skill they should have no shame.

Hello North, You posted, “In the end credentials are in the skill of the teacher.” That is true enough. You also posted, “No matter what a person's lineage is if they have great skill they should have no shame.” Amen to that! Regards, MrE2Me2

North in the end credentials are in the skill of the teacher. I have very very rarely had a student ask about my lineage or credentials. People see someone with skills they wish to aquire and then they start training. I think the only way credentials would be a real issue is if the teacher never demonstrates or has poor skill. I would wager the question of lineage with TKF and GM simon would never have been so large if they had consistantly skilled teachers and never ever yellow belts made Jr. Instructors. No matter what a person's lineage is if they have great skill they should have no shame. I agree with you 100%. Most of the people we historically hold in high esteem as Masters, I am certain, did not have certificates on their walls. My Kali instructor, Master Norman Suanico, trained under Tatang Ilustrisimo. People would come to train with Tatang because he was known as, and feared for being, one of the fiercest knife and stick fighters to roam the philipines. Noone questioned his credentials. If you thought he was a sissy, fight him. People went to him to try and learn what made him so invulnerable. It was common place in the phillipines, for prospective students to bring gifts such as meat or fruit to a Master, in hopes that they may learn just a bit from him. They would never think to approch a Master and say, hey can I see your certificate. But times have changed. With martial arts being so commercialized. It used to be that students would wait out side the door of a temple. Or outside the door of a revered Master, sometimes for days, in the hopes that their display of patience and diligence may prove they were serious about training. If they were lucky enough to be accepted by the Master they would be more than appreciative. Willing to do almost anything the Master would ask, because they realized they were in the prescence of true skill. A Master would never seek out students, the student would seek out the Master. But nowadays, the master or teacher, runs adds in the paper, or the yellow pages looking to lure in as many students as possible. The master is now seeking out the students, often without to much concern in regards to the students moral integrity. With 30 or more clubs running in any given city or town, a person is now left wondering what club to go to. If you have no experience in martial arts , a person will probably pick the club based on the same criteria they would pick a plumber. Either based on price or references ( credentials or certificates when it comes to a dojo). If the first person they talk to has a good sales pitch, bam, they are snagged. I can compare the whole credential thing in martial arts, to the credential concept in my real job ( painting). I have been painting for 18 years( never went to trade school) I learned the whole trade through the school of hard knocks. Same with the business end of it. I have been running a succesful paint business since 1997. I have no painting ticket.. There are a lot of people who come out of trade school with a ticket and they are useless. They have no idea as to what is what, and they are unwilling to learn. They try to hide behind there ticket. Well a ticket will only get you so far. Sooner or later everybody gets their ticket punched. sifu shawn

Hello Sifu Shawn, You posted, “I can compare the whole credential thing in martial arts, to the credential concept in my real job ( painting). I have been painting for 18 years( never went to trade school) I learned the whole trade through the school of hard knocks. Same with the business end of it. I have been running a succesful paint business since 1997. I have no painting ticket.. There are a lot of people who come out of trade school with a ticket and they are useless. They have no idea as to what is what, and they are unwilling to learn. They try to hide behind there ticket. Well a ticket will only get you so far. Sooner or later everybody gets their ticket punched”. I have a friend in the computer industry who has the same story. He knows his stuff (that I’m typing this is to his credit). But he doesn’t get the respect that is his due (imo). Since it was I who started this thread, maybe I’ll try and clarify why I started it at all. It was to bring out this very issue. Mo Kempo is no different than many other businesses or non profit organizations. Knowing the biz is a different thing than knowing the product. I think that this fact is forgotten, all too often. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

"Knowing the biz is a different thing than knowing the product." That is dead on! I think alot of people see the quality of the business at TKF and allow it to change their perception of the style at TKF. The style has flaws like all styles but it is nowhere near as muddy as the business practice.

Hello all, I think the other reason why credentials might be more stressed nowadays is because in the old days if you were a master you expected to be tested every now and then. In the old days they used to have a big red candle lit twenty four hours a day that meant you were accepting challenges (both of the schools that I train at here in victoria has a red light that stays on twenty four hours a day which is the modern day equivilent). So if another martial artist did not think you were any good he would call you out or come to you club and challenge you, if you won you stayed in business if you lost you closed down or lost face. This is why you see in some of the old martial arts movie how they smash the school sign after winning a challenge. The problem today though is with more laws you cant just go around challenging and beating up other martial arts instructor without getting arrested or sued so we end up falling back on credentials. On a side not does anyone else remember here a story about Simon getting in good with some politicians and supposedly having a charter which meant he could go into any other martial arts school and shut them down if they were not up to his standards. I remember it was stories like that that we used to just accept as truth right away but now you think about it and it sounds so unrealistic. Remember how Simon used to talk about verifying information but how many times did we apply that to the stories about him. thanks Swollenknuck http://www.myspace.com/swollenknuck "Shedding more sweat in peace means less blood in war"

I remember that story. I even saw some document that was supposed to be supporting evidence or such. Apparently Simon never closed down other schools out of the goodness of his heart. It is rediculous how some of these stories come about but I could see sme truth to it. He DID open the very first Martial Arts school in western Canada. Perhaps some Political figures were concerned about scam artists running schools and thus wanted it to be regulated. I doubt that anything that was put to paper or designed back in the 70's would have any weight at this moment in time. A person has to wonder where these stories come from. Some get distorted over time, while others seem just plain made up. For example the statues of Kwan Guan in all the TKF studios. Instructors tell stories about how the general saved children from a burning fire etc. I heard he was a Shaolin monk who became a general during a war with Japan and then later was captured by the Japanese. They executed him because he wouldn't teach them Kung Fu thus he chose death before disshonor. That whole stroy is non-sense but I didn't know it at the time. The statue is Guan Yu of the 3 kingdoms period of ancient China. He was never trained at Shaolin temple because he died about 250 years before Shaolin temple even existed. He was not killed by the Japanese but rather by the northern kingdom in battle. He did not choose death before disshonor but rather fell in battle. At least that is what the history books say which is much more reliable than hearsay at TKF. I do remember being genuinely concerned that Olaf would die before he gets a chance to pass on all his secret knowledge to his Masters. Mr. Sparrow reassured me that Mrs. Simon was entrusted with all the secret knowledge so it wouldn't be lost. Now I think who cares? There is no secret knowledge, at least not anything the world would be missing if he passed away. Simon gets played up alot at TKF and the uninformed take things at face value and believe it. The worst for me was a conversation with Swanstrom about 7-8 years ago when he was just a student in Edmonton south. He had just finnished visiting temple lands and had seen the plates that Simon was entrusted with by the Shaolin monks. (lol) He believed it completely. Even me at a gulible stage realized this seemed like a very flawed situation. I wonder if Simon started these stories about himself or if others somehow created them? As for the subject of credentials I think that a lineage only has to be traced back to 1 martial artist who was remarkable. Nobody truly asks who trained that person. For example if you trained JKD and your teacer could show his lineage up to Bruce Lee that would be good enough for 99% of people. Most would never hear anything about Yip Man or his accomplishments. Yet if a student trains in the Augustine Fong lineage they would hear that "He was trained by the same man who taught Bruce Lee." :) In the end the comercialization of martial arts in North America is ruining it. It will become more of a history class than physical exercise as the exercise makes you sweat and you'd rather learn to play guitar with your money. It is selling a hobby to people. in the end they are likely to quit early and trash talk you behind your back just as is happening to TKF all the time. Very sad state of affairs. I have been guilty of trash talk in the past as well. I guess getting past all those "Simon is the greatest" stories makes it hard to recognize the good things you take away from TKF. It doesn't matter how many sweets you eat, once you have something bitter, that's the taste that's left in your mouth to linger...

To all, About credential and challenges: I started this thread about credentials. It was with an eye towards opening a dialogue on the subject. So far, I’d say I have been successful and we have all benefited. All that being said; I don’t accept challenges. If someone came to me and challenged me, there are several things I’d do. I’d make sure they signed up as a student (written documentation). I’d make sure they understood that I don’t accept challenges (because dueling is illegal). If they had adhered to the first two conditions, there is something else they’d do. They’d spar with my student while I watched. Then and only then; might I accept a “friendly” sparring match with them. Unfair? Probably…but I am in the business (or was) of teaching self defense. I’m not in the business of fighting strangers who haven’t invested in my club. I live by what I do and I do not teach my people to issue or accept challenges. On the other hand, if a stranger attacked me, I’d defend myself, in and out of court. I do realize that such a stand is unpopular. Several of my colleagues might be surprised by my apparent unwillingness to fight. But I must feel justified in inflicting violence upon someone else. And just because someone doesn’t like my art, isn’t reason enough. Nor is the idea that they may be too lazy or inept at business to start their own. (So why not take over mine?) North, you posted, “In the end the comercialization of martial arts in North America is ruining it. It will become more of a history class than physical exercise as the exercise makes you sweat and you'd rather learn to play guitar with your money. It is selling a hobby to people. in the end they are likely to quit early and trash talk you behind your back just as is happening to TKF all the time.” With all due respect here: I disagree. I once read that something like only 10% of all businesses survive in their first year. Of those that survive, 10% survive the first five years. The point is, only a very few operators are lucky enough and /or successful enough. Most fail because their business ability just isn’t good enough. Those that do succeed are able and ready. I think it is a myth that the arts are dying here. What I do think is happening is this. They are evolving and growing. You also posted, “It doesn't matter how many sweets you eat, once you have something bitter, that's the taste that's left in your mouth to linger...” Again, with all due respect: I disagree and would point to the forum members who post here (including you). All of us are respectful and courteous (these days). We are evolving and growing. For example: You have not let that bitter taste linger. (And I am no longer known as, “Bitter Bob”). Regards, MrE2Me2