Credentials
Credentials It seems to me that we are getting bogged down in vague terms. Terms which mean different things to different people? Terms like the following: Beginner – someone starting to learn the art Apprentice – a beginner who is partially skilled in the art. Journeyman – an apprentice who has completed his basic training in the art. Expert – a journeyman who has been practicing for awhile in the art Master – an expert of supreme skill in the art Grand Master – a master who leads the art I remember talking with other practitioners about this. One said that a black belt was, in fact, a master of martial arts. Another said a black belt was a journeyman of martial arts. I have also read that some consider a black belt to be an expert beginner. I have read definitions that state a traditional master must: - Train for 20 years under a certified master - Pass all tests and meet all the requirements presented by said master - Continuously and conscientiously practice the art - Be a person upstanding and virtuous in character - Must be awarded the title of master by his teacher There are other ways of looking at it, like Ed Parker’s Magician of Motion, etc. And I know one Master of Moh who, when he wants to impress someone, tells them how long he has been in continuous practice (about 30 plus years). What do you think?

To all, I started this thread nearly a month ago (Friday will make it 4 weeks exactly). Since then, there have been 89 views but no one has responded. So I’ve decided to take it to the next level. Now, the martial art that I train is largely based on Moh Kempo. Without Moh (and without Kurt) this art would not have evolved as it did. I am the founder of K.I.S.A.E. Kempo. That is my title and it is a large hand full all by itself. I have a very strict definition of what a “Master” should be. And quite frankly, I don’t fit the requirements. I have no problem with that, incidentally. So this thread is not about me. With all that being said; the majority of this forum is devoted to Moh. So I’d really like to read what other knowledgeable forum members think What is the current definition of a “Master” of Moh Kempo? Here is mine. “Master – an expert of supreme skill in the art” Also and more completely, “- Train for 20 years under a certified master - Pass all tests and meet all the requirements presented by said master - Continuously and conscientiously practice the art - Be a person upstanding and virtuous in character - Must be awarded the title of master by his teacher”

Well then according to your criteria what does this make Grand Master Simon: 1. "- Train for 20 years under a certified master " Olaf's own brother said there is no Fu Yen. Marge Hilberg said he learned from a book. Simon never had 20 years of tutelage. 2. "- Pass all tests and meet all the requirements presented by said master " Simon's master may have been Black Belt Magazine. 3. "- Continuously and conscientiously practice the art" I would hardly call it an art. 4. "- Be a person upstanding and virtuous in character" I wonder if the Dalai Seng Shi, Silver sash holder, 23rd successor of the Tookien Temple, His Holiness Olaf Simon would fit this description. 5. " Must be awarded the title of master by his teacher” Maybe Olaf can write Black Belt Magazine for a certificate. By your own standards Olaf only meets your 3rd prerequisite. 1 out of 5 ain't bad for the old man. Maybe "Pseudo Grand Master" would be more appropriate.

Hello TKF_PHS, About your post…concede…L.O.L. you got me good. I guess a bit of an explanation is in order. I once read a short piece by the editor of a martial arts mag. In it, he wrote about the credentials of a “Traditional” “Master”. That is what I used here as a base line. I guess I’ll have to shorten up my previous credentials to mean just that. And as I said, I concede that Olaf doesn’t meet these requirements either. Now the rub. Sifu Shawn posted about Master Higgs being certified as a legit Master. Surely he is not alone in requiring certification. What were the criteria used here? Common sense would tell me that several points would need to be addressed. To start, one would need: 1. A group of skilled peers, 2. A solid training base, 3. Practical experience, 4. A breadth requirement of some sort (on the various parts of the art), 5. Possibly a certain area of extreme expertise, 6. Professional development of some sort. Your thoughts? Regards, MrE2Me2

What is the current definition of a “Master” of Moh Kempo? I hate to be an as... I mean an 'agitator' - but I think that the current definition of a Master of Moh would have to be the following: "One who was around and available after the last set of Masters got kicked out." LOL

Hello Drunken Monkey There was a time when this may have been true. For instance, like when I was young. And let there be no mistake here, This is a difficult subject. That is the very reason I posed it it the first place. I wanted to to elicit responses from the mainstream. All reasonable responses, even agitations, are welcome here. Regards, MrE2Me2

For me I think all of the master at TKF past and present were well deserving of the rank. There is one instance where I agree with DM that in my opinion one individual should not have been made a master. In that one instance the decision I beleive the forced by a matter of need at the time. I don't think if shoudl have been done and hindsight being what is shows this was the case. I hope i never see it again somehow I doubt I will. I'm not familiar with the master Mr E trains with Master Terlecki I think it is, but I understand he is a very skilled individual.

Hello Current Student, I hope to set the record straight here, first. Master Terlecki is my senior classmate from a long time ago. We were students under Phillip McAndrews in Edmonton in the late 1970’s. Later, I had joined with Wayne Thomas, Scott MacLaren and the crew. Then I started teaching in Surrey, B.C. Roman started teaching in North Vancouver a couple of years later. To all, I am the founder of a system based on Moh.. But I am also a renegade and guy who loves to bang (in the parlance of today). I have strict guidelines for the various levels of belts. I have strict guidelines that I expect my students to meet. But that is me. I view Roman Terlecki as a Master of martial arts. I view Trevor Higgs as a Master of martial arts. I also viewed Wayne Thomas and Scott Maclaren (as I knew them) as Masters too. And that is just plain irritating because there is no set standard (that I have found). It is my informed opinion but that is all it is, an informed opinion. The six criterions I listed earlier in this thread are a place to start. But where do we go from there? Regards, MrE2Me2

Safeguards
Credentials 5 Here is another thought for you to mull over. Suppose that an individual or group of individuals attained real political power. Suppose that you were not in their favor or they were not in yours. Think how difficult it might become to find a training facility that wasn’t of their faction. For every advantage, there is an equal and opposite disadvantage. What safeguards would be necessary to ensure that this attempted coup did not occur? Sorry… to ensure that it did not occur…Again!

I do not understand what you are getting at. Why would it be difficult to find another place to train?

TKF_PHS, Two things here. One. I read an article in a magazine a number of years ago. The article was about this French martial arts instructor. According to this article, the French government certified who could and could not teach martial arts. This guy could not get cerification to teach. Therefore the governing board had real power over him when perhaps it should not have. Can you imagine certain individuals with this kind of power? Two. I read another article in a martial arts magazine a number of years ago. In it, Jhoon Rhee (of TKD fame) was said to have thwarted a similar attempt by someone to do this in the U.S. I can see certifications from the government as one giant headache. Nor do I think it would solve anything. Regards, MrE2Me2 p.s., as much as a board certification would solve things, it might cause more problems too. Your thoughts?

Government certification? Yeeshh!!! With all the varied styles of MA out there how is any Government body going to be able to be qualified to know? It would be fine if there were only one style, naw even that would be an unnecessary and unwelcome intrusion. Having said that I wonder, What are the responsibilities of a Master? What if the students, or student decides to use his/her skills to cause others hardship or engages in criminal activity, what are the Master's responsibilities in these matters? Does the Master have any responsibility to the community at large? Should a Master have the obligation or the right to do a criminal background check, would this right step on the rights of students who may have broken the law but are otherwise peaceful people and what of the student with ill-intent who has never been caught, who decides? I ask this because I have a criminal record, though I would never intentionally hurt anyone unless absolutely necessary. Should I be barred from training?

Hello Cam, You have asked some seriously uncomfortable questions, all right. As for police background checks. A few years ago there was a bodyguard academy. It had the police do checks every which way from Sunday. Bad guys still got through and learned enough to stage a successful ambush on a foreign dignitary. The end result was no more academy... even though the guy did everything by the book. Regards, MrE2Me2

Indeed these are serious questions! Unfortunately there are no easy answers! I remember a documentary, years ago. about two feuding families in Newfoundland. At that time there were members of both families in the same prison, one of the individuals involved bartered with a known black-belt in the prison and received some training in exchange. Later this man killed his rival using what he had learned. Now this black-belt knew of the feud, knew that there would be a confrontation but taught the person anyways, where was his responsibility, where were his ethics? When interviewed he seemed non-chalant about his involvement, though in my eyes he contributed in a murder, skould he have been punished?

Hello Cam, There are always going to be the bad ones alright. In spite of what we have been posting here, I think we are heading in the right direction. I think that the focus of training is going towards a more responsible approach. Sifu Shawn responded to my “What would you do?” scenarios quite carefully. (Okay, okay…the miracle aside.) He used phrases like “Minimum-Medium threat”. He is not alone in assessing the threat of an attack. In that same vein, I think that more emphasis is now being placed on “Why fight” than ever before. I also think that instructors are returning to a more cautious approach in teaching overall. This would include determining why one wants to train (just my opinion). I absolutely do not agree with government intervention in determining credentials. But many civilian review boards that have contradictory requirements are bad too. Regards, MrE2Me2