Hey Yen Hui, Upon reflection you are right, that excerpt from the White Priest is very appropriate there, I will add it. Thank you for the input. On an interesting note, Grand Master Simons reference to "Betrayal" in this circumstance relates directly to another thread on this forum, funny how some things are meant to be...

In Buddhist thought all suffering is brought on by desire, so life itself is the cause of all suffering. Is there a reason, who cares? Just go out and enjoy the exquisite suffering that is life :lol: Yen Hui, have you read any Joseph Cambell?

There was one tape, in one of his(Campbell's) lecture series that dealt with Oriental mythology/religion, I'll see if I can find any info! Campbell was a Professor of Comparative Religion and Mythology, so he took a more Whole World view, he didn't really focus in on any one religion, he had a wonderful take on how the myths and religions dealt with the Human psyche. I think you might enjoy it! By the way, what did you know of this Master Island? Did he train Moh Kempo or something else?

"The only remaining question now, it seems, is whether it is possible for a young man who achieved his 3rd degree BB at Simon's, in under 5 years, to complete his 5th degree in 2 more years, to make him a full-ranking master in 7 years?" My own opinion is no. I find it extremely unlikely that anyone, however talented and hard-working, could achieve a 3rd degree in under 5 years. Do we have anything except Leishman's word that he was one of these "lesser masters"? I've also heard people say that a black belt at TKF is equivalent to a master in many other systems. Perhaps the "lesser master" is simply a reference to a TKF black belt. Or perhaps he was called a "lesser master" because he was an instructor under a master. And no, I don't think it possible to go from a 3rd to a 6th in 2 years either, at least not in the Moh system. I know in some simpler systems such as TKD it's much easier to get degrees. But with the amount of stuff there is in Moh I really can't see someone becoming a master in 7 years, even if they train 12 hours a day. That's just my own personal opinion, never having met Leishman myself.

Vortexx, "The only remaining question now, it seems, is whether it is possible for a young man who achieved his 3rd degree BB at Simon's, in under 5 years, to complete his 5th degree in 2 more years, to make him a full-ranking master in 7 years?" My own opinion is no. I find it extremely unlikely that anyone, however talented and hard-working, could achieve a 3rd degree in under 5 years. I agree with you. You are lucky to obtain a black belt in five years never mind a thirs degree. sifu shawn

To both Sifu Shawn and Vortexx, With all due respect: You guys post like there is a standardized format for testing 1st, 2nd and 3rd degree BB. If there is today (and I would hope so), There wasn’t necessarily the same standards then. Perhaps the more relevant question is what makes up these degrees. I’m not saying you are right or wrong here; I don’t have enough info to do that. But that is my point, what are the standards for a 3rd degree? And what were they then? Do you see what I’m asking here? Regards, MrE2Me2

Judging someone in terms of buddhism has a tone of irony that makes me uncomfortable. Not sure if any of you are buddhist or not anyway but it's not a direction a buddhist would normally go. However the irony of me pointing this out is not lost on me either. "He who treads the Path in earnest Sees not the mistakes of the world; If we find fault with others We ourselves are also in the wrong. When other people are in the wrong, we should ignore it, For it is wrong for us to find fault. By getting rid of this habit of fault-finding We cut off a source of defilement. When neither hatred nor love disturb our mind Serenely we sleep." -Sutra of Hui Neng 2

Well, it is possible the "Lower Ranking Master" Degree was awarded to a few select 2nd degree holders. As I implied at the outset of this thread, my faint recollection after 15 years was that he made his departure near or just after attaining his 2nd degree. I don't accept the idea that the Rank was awarded to all 1st degree BB's, or any instructor beneath a TKF master, as Simon clearly states in 'The White Priest' that only a very few of these degrees were ever given out. It was clearly a degree higher than 1st degree, at the very least, imho, !

Mr E2Me2, With all due respect: You guys post like there is a standardized format for testing 1st, 2nd and 3rd degree BB. If there is today (and I would hope so), There wasn’t necessarily the same standards then. Perhaps the more relevant question is what makes up these degrees. This is a good point. I do not know what standards were like back then. But I do feel that degrees get handed out way to easy. As a matter of fact I feel that in todays Martial World, degrees have turned into a thing of status, not of knowledge or experience. I personally do not put a lot of credence in the whole degree thing. I mean lets say, for example, we base your degrees on katas. So you memorize 5 or 6 or 8 more katas and you get another degree. A person with good natural athletic ability and a photographic memory could then get a lot of degrees. But are they worthy of it. I see a lot of young "Masters". I see a lot of young people willing to call themselves " Masters". personally I dont care if I ever get another degree. I train for knowledge and to get better as a Martial Artist and to become better as a person. I think there is way to much energy wasted on the whole debate about a persons degree. If I had my way, my club would have no ranking at all. Everyone would train because they are in love with the arts. Some people would train because they want to stay in shape, some people would train forms, some would train weapons, some would like the fighting part of it. If you really wanted to find out where you sit in the hierarchy of the club you would get on the mats. Its easy to establish who is top man on the totem and who is the low man on the totem when you are on the mats. That would be your ranking system, right there. You dont need belts to let you know where your position on the "food chain" is. Step on the mats it becomes clear really quick. The mats are generally not a good place to hang out if your status is important to you, and your ego easily damaged. Because if you are the top dog today, you may be the small dog tommorow. sifu shawn

Hello Sifu Shawn, You posted, “But I do feel that degrees get handed out way to easy. As a matter of fact I feel that in todays Martial World, degrees have turned into a thing of status, not of knowledge or experience. Sometimes, it was that way, back then too. We had people who were deserving of their rank. And we also had people who got it because of other things. I do believe in rank but I don’t see it as a status thing. You also posted, “I personally do not put a lot of credence in the whole degree thing.” Nor do I, with me it is about the art. The rank is there and it is a necessary evil (imo). Without rank, it would be easier for clubs to descend into chaos. As I’m sure you are aware, rank is an individual club thing. Even with martial sports like boxing or wrestling, there are levels. You posted, “personally I dont care if I ever get another degree. I train for knowledge and to get better as a Martial Artist and to become better as a person.” I hear that too. If I had wanted to get more degrees, I wouldn’t have waited this long (believe you me). You posted, “I think there is way to much energy wasted on the whole debate about a persons degree.” Perhaps that is the way it is in some cases. But I believe there are many more people who are interested in the art. You also posted, “The mats are generally not a good place to hang out if your status is important to you, and your ego easily damaged. Because if you are the top dog today, you may be the small dog tommorow.” That is so true. Regards, MrE2Me2