Re: All good points
Hello, DaveS. A student could drop out after orange belt and continue to train and perfect what he has learned to that point. I would suggest they would be extremely effective after enough time has passed. True (at least to a point). I agree that the mastery of what you know is much more important than the amount of stuff you know. There is actually quite a bit of advanced stuff in the basics, though it usually only becomes obvious with more training experience (whether in this style, or as you and North pointed out, in other styles). "Simon's system stands in its own right and does not need "history" to validate it's effectiveness...." Really? This is an interesting statement. If that is the case then why all the hype and propganda about Shaolin, 23rd guardianship, Fu Yen, etc? Marketing. The history, whether made up or real, or a combination of both, may make the style more appealing in the eyes of the public, but it does not change the style itself or its effectiveness. That's what I meant. Just as the souring of TKF business reputation does not change the fact that the actual system is very effective when taught and trained right. As an aside, if it weren't for the references to the Temple and Shaolin in the TKF's YellowPages ad, chances are I would not have picked it. Misleading? May be. But I am grateful I was mislead in this case. Despite all the flaws of how TKF was run, I have enjoyed my training experience immensely and have grown a lot trhough it.

To all, 92 posted, “Marketing. The history, whether made up or real, or a combination of both, may make the style more appealing in the eyes of the public, but it does not change the style itself or its effectiveness.” The yellow pages ad worked for me! And when I first walked into the old Edmonton studio back in 1977, it was seemed a good match. The first thing I saw was the spectacular studio lay out complete with weapons, big mirrors and such. The first people I saw were Mr. Leishman instructing Ms. Berezan in the reverse roundhouse kick. That brief picture did more to convince me that this was the place to train than all the scripts. If anything, the scripts took away from the image for me. 92 posted, “Just as the souring of TKF business reputation does not change the fact that the actual system is very effective when taught and trained right.” If the Edmonton Studio had been more laid back and had a lower key, I wouldn’t have left. So the marketing which got me in and the enthusiasm which convinced me to stay was not followed up. Instead, the high pressure sales pitch seemed to me to be totally at odds with the initial marketing. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Hi Mystery guy. "Are you serious? Schoolyard taunts and your general immature behavior have let all see how foolish you really are. I read a lot of the Kenpo forums and I have never seen such derogatory remarks. Those would be a banning offense (and you would know this if you bothered to read there). So why don’t you show us how mature you can be a delete your taunts to “RD”. Please don't talk down to me. This idiot's posts have no content to this thread, only to try to discredit me. YOU as a moderator failed in doing your job. I defended myself. Now the thug has shown me he has access to my e-mail. This is the quality of people you are trying to protect and a shining example of an Olaf Disciple. The rest of your response seems to prove my point, especially this; "First off, you are not suggesting, you are alleging. Second, as I have stated repeatedly, Olaf and Ed practiced Kempo/Kenpo differently from each other. Third, Grand Master Ed Parker changed Kenpo many times." -Now here is what I am telling you. I can identify, and have trained with kenpoists spanning that whole era. There are identifiable concepts, moves & signatures that are unmistakable. None of it is evident in "MOH Kenpo" Your cut & paste skills are exemplary , but for someone to lecture on kenpo that doesn't know his lone kimono from his five swords is laughable. My challenge has been and always will be, Is for you to take what you think you know about kenpo and go and show it to an American Kenpo master from the Ed Parker lineage and my "allegation" will be that they won't recognize any of what you do. Until then you should really rethink the kenpo influence. bye. J.K.

Hello TKFBS, You posted, “Please don't talk down to me.” I’m not talking down to you. I’m trying to ascertain whether you are serious in your school yard taunts. And by the way, all you have shown me is that you are capable of immature behavior. I have much more respect for the writings, techniques and concepts of many Kenpo notables. The first of these in American Kenpo would of course be Ed Parker, Larry Tatum, and Jeff Speakman. There are many others but these will suffice for this post. In Kajukenbo, There is Adriano Emperado and the redoubtable John Bishop. I’d post links to videos and writings of each of these people but you have made it clear you don’t read them. You posted about “RD”, “This idiot's posts have no content to this thread, only to try to discredit me...I defended myself.” Hey…it was you who posted (and I quote), “Or do you want to meet me in the parking lot ? Your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries. I fart in your general direction. Go away or I will taunt you yet again. “ You also posted about “RD”, “Now the thug has shown me he has access to my e-mail. What, exactly, are you alleging here? You posted about me, “YOU as a moderator failed in doing your job.” I have been tolerant and offered you the opportunity to correct your foolish statements. If I have failed in anything, I haven’t been strict enough with a trash talker like you. You also posted about me, “This is the quality of people you are trying to protect and a shining example of an Olaf Disciple.” “RD” posted, “Which brings me to the reason for my post. I would like to politely ask you to stop flaming. I can’t say it better than that. You posted, “Now here is what I am telling you. I can identify, and have trained with kenpoists spanning that whole era.” Which whole era? Did you train with the Tracy Brothers? Did you train with Ralph Castro? How far back did you start your training in American Kenpo? You posted, “None of it is evident in "MOH Kenpo" In the first post of this thread it was I who said, “Ed Parker and Olaf Simon approached Kempo / Kenpo differently.” You posted, “…but for someone to lecture on kenpo that doesn't know his lone kimono from his five swords is laughable.” There are many ways to defend against a left lapel grab and a right hook punch. It would appear you are locked into only seeing American Kenpo techniques as valid. And that shows me how narrow you world view really is. You also posted, “My challenge has been and always will be, Is for you to take what you think you know about kenpo and go and show it to an American Kenpo master from the Ed Parker lineage and my "allegation" will be that they won't recognize any of what you do. Until then you should really rethink the kenpo influence.” In case it hasn’t dawned on you yet, I’ll elucidate it for you. These guys are working very hard at their art. I am working very hard at mine. None of us really has time for this nonsense. Yet we do have time for courtesy and a reasoned debate. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

On the subject of comparison I tried to provide some examples to show how the style is the same. Check out the Larry Tatum or Scott Rogers threads I have provided. Then by all means go visit the "Styles you train now" section and see the clips from Wing Chun, Shaolin, BSL, and Bagua. I think you will agree that the Moh style is very clearly kenpo/kempo. I don't see why people would be insulted by this fact. Granted Olaf Simon isn't the best martial artist in terms of reputation but the style is what it is. This bickering is like the 2 schools of Wing Chum saying the other is not real when they are both doing the exact same wooden dummy form and practicing the same techniques and drills. It is what it is.

Hi Mystery guy and assorted hangers on. This will be my last post. I will try to be as clear as possible . This thread was titled the "kenpo connection". No one on this board has ANY experience with Ed Parker's kenpo. Except for myself. Please feel free to correct me if anyone has been to a seminar or trained with a kenpo senior. I have trained that art far longer than Simon and Hilbig claim to have had exposure to. I will tell you without a doubt that they are NOT the same art. Prove me wrong. If Simon had included any kenpo in his "art" show me. Go to take some lessons, find a seminar. SHow up to a tournament. (come on North let's see ya bust out "awakening the dragon for some kenpoists.) Simon and Hilbig Do not show up on any Parker family tree so clearly they made no impact w/ Parker. I am telling you (not alleging) that there is so little of Ed Parker's influence in the hodgepodge you do you should not call it Kenpo. (nevermind Moh whatever the hell that means-btw why don't you find me a translation for that?). Maybe you should all be ninjas. They had no problem claiming that their techniques were stolen from all over. So basically I am calling all of you out who claim to do Kenpo. Prove that what you do is kenpo. If you set your egos aside (probably impossible to get out from under that Simon influence) and start learning a truer form of kenpo than the B.S. you practice, and are truethful w/ yourself , You will find that I am correct. So there is an ARMY of armchair warriors on this sight , NONE of whom have the experience that I do, ALL disagreeing w/ me. As for your sharp tone in dealing w/ me there Mystery Dude- F-off. The way see it , you are scared to discover the truth. Get off your ass, away from the Parker sights you so dearly love , and do some training. Find out for yourself. I will post the dates for the Internationals if you get some stones between now and then. Until then, Prove me wrong. J.K.

Hello TKFBS, You posted, “This will be my last post.” Obviously not, as you turned around and posted again about Kenpo 4. You posted, “This thread was titled the "kenpo connection". It was I who said, “Ed Parker and Olaf Simon approached Kempo / Kenpo differently.” You posted, “As for your sharp tone in dealing w/ me there Mystery Dude- F-off.” Your vents are filled with pathetic school yard taunts and vulgarity (that is all you post). Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Wow our well know agitator J.K. is back. Pretty arrogant to suggest that the entire universe of Kempo is encompassed in Ed Parker's American Kenpo system don't you think? I don't even think Ed Parker would even suggest that it should be the water mark to which all other systems should be compared. My personal observation is American Kenpo and Moh Pai are very different, though there are similarities. No more or less similar than any oriental martial art is today. There are similarities in forms but they are very different on many levels.

Hello Current Student, It has been a while :-D I’m going to go off on a bit of a tangent for a moment or two. I find it very interesting that the members of this forum have such diverse backgrounds. Sifu Sblano is highly trained in Kajukenbo as well as Moh. Sifu Shawn has made mention of his background in Philippine Martial Arts. Aren’t your trained under Tony Blair before your training in Moh? And then there are all the different guys who train in various forms of kung fu (and Moh). I also notice that none of the above mentioned people seems to have a narrow world view. Nor have I seen any evidence of an arrogant or condescending attitude anywhere among them. Regards, MrE2Me2 Without prejudice E&OE

Hello 92, Wups! My Bad! You are correct…it was Tony Blauer (? Sp) The idea was sound, just not the detail. Sorry bout that. Regards, MrE2Me2

Hello 92, You posted, “…there seems to be more attention to stances and stance transitions in Moh as opposed to American Kempo.” I agree and I have raised my stances up in a similar fashion to them. I did so because of my injuries. You posted, “…especially bringing the knees together on transitions, I see alomost none of that. Moh stances and forms also seem to be a bit more grounded, while Amerikan Kempo forms and techniques seem to be lighter on their feet.” Again, I would agree based on what I have seen. The changes in my stances and stance transitions have made it easier for me to keep practicing. But I was originally drawn to Moh partially because of the way my teachers stood and moved. I thought it was very powerful (still do) and struggled hard to emulate my teachers in this. Yet I am unable to stand as I once did or move like that either so I modified it. As a result, I can still train hard and with real effectiveness. Regards, MrE2Me2

"As for the Chinese styles, the vast majority of Kung Fu demonstrations and videos seem to be almost exclusively forms, with much fewer application videos. While stylistically most traditional Chinese forms do appear to be quite different from Moh forms, I don't remember coming across application videos that seemed radically different from Moh Pai applications. Most of the motions in those applications could be described in terms of applications of Moh Pai motions and techniques. North, I would be interested in your take on this, since you have trained both Moh and more traditional kung fu styles." When it comes to application it varies from style to style quite a bit actually. Moh is of a southern lineage and has the most in common with styles like Wing Chun or Hung Gar. Wing Chun does stand very high in it's stance compared to Moh, and the stepping is completely different. Ultimately because of the sheer variety of techniques in Moh a person could arrive at any application if they trained a technique in a certain way. But, Moh does favor a harsh abrupt style of movement when compared to northern or more internal styles such as BSL or Bagua. The applications from Bagua are extremely different from Moh. It makes use of alot more pushing the opponant, turning them and moving the body high low center as opposed to striking to high low center. Bagua isn't a fast-kill art as much as a high-skill art. (If that makes sense) Northern and modern styles of shaolin would best be described as using "false opening" combined with movements and stances. Traps are set using the rythm of attack and defend. For example, Bruce Lee said to attack on the 1.5 beat. What he meant was if you move 1...2...3...4...5 etc then you can hit your opponant by moving 1...2...3..3.5(attack). In Shaolin they use very chaotic timing to their attacks and movements. This timing is extremely important and applications are derived from it. Also because conditioning is so important in these styles the techniques start to vary based on how far along a person is in their conditioning. A Moh stylist would likely never drive his fingers directly into the attacker. (Maybe the eyes or other soft spots but generally fingers are not the weapon) But to a northern stylist if the fingers are conditioned they become useful weapons. The back of the hand is used very often to strike. Moh is much more scientific in how it attacks. The slidestep details (Knees, slide, head level) while in shaolin it is more the intensity. Less care is taken on how you move towards your oppoant in terms of protecting yourself in return that time and focus is put into ferociousness and intimidation. Intimidation is a huge part of these styles. Glaring with the eyes is an actual taught technique and considered extremely important. Pointing at opponants before attacking might not seem wise, but in the Shaolin style anything that unnerves your opponant is used. Ultimately the way techniques and applications are used is going to vary from year to year as the student aquires more conditioning. When you can do a tornado kick to the head and land gracefully on your feet it becomes a valid attack. When you can slap through concrete slabs your palm is used to block forcefully with the intent to cause harm to the attackers limbs. Likewise not only do you train to block, but you condition the body to be able to take very powerful blows without injury. For example: Stand with your feet shoulder width apart and bend forward placing the top of your head on the ground. Put your hands behind your back and keep the back straight. Hold that position. Initially it will hurt the top of your head a great deal. Then the head and neck will toughen. Then you eventually train to twist around with big steps as the head stays planted on the ground. This exercise leads to a very powerful neck but the top of the head becomes a useful and practical attacking tool. (Like certain soccer players final gesture to the sport) I think "most" martial arts start out with a very similar foundation. You learn to punch, you learn the basic stances. Angles and subtle techniques may vary but it isn't until mid-higher levels of knowledge that the real variations appear. There are exceptions like Tai Chi and I am sure others I have not trained like maybe Xing Yi (Perhaps Grasshopper could tell us his experiences with that art?) When I saw Demo's of Ed Parker and other American Kenpoists, I noticed the techniques and tempo they chose to use to deal with attackers. It looked almost identical to how a Moh stylist would choose to move and attack as well as the tempo. A Wing Chun stylist would have the same tempo, but would have more of a forward movement pushing into the opponant with their stepping and attacking. A Bagua stylist would circle, redirect arms and take more time to deal with the opponant but exercise less brutality and more control. A Shaolin stylist would have an extremely different tempo, almost recklessly attacking, the attacks based on how the MA is conditioned and less on which targets are softest. A slap to the skull is a perfectly valid attack and once a person has proper power generation and hand/arm conditioning a slap can break a neck or other bones. When I look at a new/different style of fighting I look at the tempo of movement, level of aggrassion, body ryhtm and targets. I also look at the height of stance, variation of stance and angles or arcs of movement. Uing the distance theories (Full 3/4 1/2 1/4 etc) each style seems to have a prefered distance to operate from. This too I consider. With all these things in mind perhaps you will see more similarity between Kenpo and Kempo as opposed to other styles.